Grace Millane
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@taniwharugby the only explanation offered regarding the blood is that she was bleeding from the nose and mouth after strangulation. No evidence offered so far of anything else and I am pretty certain it would have been by now.
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@Crucial so assuming she died of strangulation, they had one session that caused the blood got up wandered around bleeding but had another crack that caused her death.
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@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial so assuming she died of strangulation, they had one session that caused the blood got up wandered around bleeding but had another crack that caused her death.
No.I think you may want to read that blood evidence again. From what I gather she was lying on the floor and had been bleeding onto the carpet. He tried to clean that blood up and banged to spread it into a bigger patch. Another patch was very circular like it was from the bottom of a bucket. The 'splatter' was consistent with being flicked there on moving the body.
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I don't know how much stock juries take into pattern of behaviour. I'm still not convinced of the murder charge. The guy seems to have issues, but premeditated killing? Seems more like a spur of the moment thing in response to her maybe having second thoughts
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@canefan looking more like rough/dangerous sex that went wrong. He claims it was consensual. Prosecutors presenting a picture that he may not have gained consent and went ahead anyway (with the choking).
I’m still wondering how he can claim consent yet also claim to have been so pissed that he fell asleep in the shower after.
I doubt premeditation but certainly think possible that he instigated and controlled the strangulation and ‘caused’ death. -
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@canefan looking more like rough/dangerous sex that went wrong. He claims it was consensual. Prosecutors presenting a picture that he may not have gained consent and went ahead anyway (with the choking).
I’m still wondering how he can claim consent yet also claim to have been so pissed that he fell asleep in the shower after.
I doubt premeditation but certainly think possible that he instigated and controlled the strangulation and ‘caused’ death.So if the prosecution are trying to make a murder charge stick, is it a yes or no situation or can they fall back to a manslaughter or wrongful death charge? If it's all or nothing I think there is a significant chance of acquittal
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Going back to this post as evidence emerges of bruising consistent with either restraining or deliberate 'roughness' (bruising on arms and shoulders)
@Godder said in Grace Millane:
To show murder, the prosecution has to prove a few things beyond reasonable doubt:
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That it was homicide, legally defined as the killing of a human being by another human being, rather than natural causes like old age, illness, undiagnosed heart condition etc. Animal attacks and suicide are also not counted as homicide.
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That the homicide is culpable i.e. caused by an illegal act or omission. Hitting and killing a pedestrian is homicide but it won't be culpable if they jump in front of a truck or train who has no way to avoid the accident.
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That the act was deliberate, premeditated and intended to cause death, or reckless as to whether death might occur and death was a reasonable possibility (arson while knowing someone is in the building is an example of this). It's also murder if someone deliberately causes grievous bodily injury during the commission of a serious crime or while escaping from it.
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If it's culpable homicide but not murder, it's manslaughter.
So 1. is ticked off. Even the defence are conceding that he killed her.
For 2. to be correct the prosecution need to prove that the act was against her will. The story that they deliberately had sex involving strangulation is looking a bit weaker (IMO) alongside the bruising. He claims that the whole episode was 'rough sex' but in particular the bruising on the elbow is consistent with someone being grabbed as they tried to get away.
The first part of 3. looks unlikely but recklessness is certainly an option.Still lots to come but there is a picture being built that she may have tried to get away from him as he became rougher (hence ending up on the floor) and he then pinned her down.
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@canefan looking more like rough/dangerous sex that went wrong. He claims it was consensual. Prosecutors presenting a picture that he may not have gained consent and went ahead anyway (with the choking).
I’m still wondering how he can claim consent yet also claim to have been so pissed that he fell asleep in the shower after.
I doubt premeditation but certainly think possible that he instigated and controlled the strangulation and ‘caused’ death.So if the prosecution are trying to make a murder charge stick, is it a yes or no situation or can they fall back to a manslaughter or wrongful death charge? If it's all or nothing I think there is a significant chance of acquittal
If the act causing death is illegal then it can be manslaughter if it is not murder. That looks like an option here because the law doesn't allow people to consent to death or actual bodily harm unless there is a public policy reason to allow consent e.g. surgery. Strangulation being a recently added crime makes it harder to claim consent.
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@Godder said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@canefan looking more like rough/dangerous sex that went wrong. He claims it was consensual. Prosecutors presenting a picture that he may not have gained consent and went ahead anyway (with the choking).
I’m still wondering how he can claim consent yet also claim to have been so pissed that he fell asleep in the shower after.
I doubt premeditation but certainly think possible that he instigated and controlled the strangulation and ‘caused’ death.So if the prosecution are trying to make a murder charge stick, is it a yes or no situation or can they fall back to a manslaughter or wrongful death charge? If it's all or nothing I think there is a significant chance of acquittal
If the act causing death is illegal then it can be manslaughter if it is not murder. That looks like an option here because the law doesn't allow people to consent to death or actual bodily harm unless there is a public policy reason to allow consent e.g. surgery. Strangulation being a recently added crime makes it harder to claim consent.
So if the other tinder date witness testifies to being asphyxiated and fearing for her life without consent I wonder how damaging that is to his case
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@Godder said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@canefan looking more like rough/dangerous sex that went wrong. He claims it was consensual. Prosecutors presenting a picture that he may not have gained consent and went ahead anyway (with the choking).
I’m still wondering how he can claim consent yet also claim to have been so pissed that he fell asleep in the shower after.
I doubt premeditation but certainly think possible that he instigated and controlled the strangulation and ‘caused’ death.So if the prosecution are trying to make a murder charge stick, is it a yes or no situation or can they fall back to a manslaughter or wrongful death charge? If it's all or nothing I think there is a significant chance of acquittal
If the act causing death is illegal then it can be manslaughter if it is not murder. That looks like an option here because the law doesn't allow people to consent to death or actual bodily harm unless there is a public policy reason to allow consent e.g. surgery. Strangulation being a recently added crime makes it harder to claim consent.
So if the other tinder date witness testifies to being asphyxiated and fearing for her life without consent I wonder how damaging that is to his case
hugely. The 'accidental' doesn't defend much if you 'accidentally' strangle other people who fear they may die.
I have kids. They 'accdientally' eat bits of chocolate. This does not convince me as judge, jury and er... dispenser of fatherly jokes.
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@Godder said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@canefan looking more like rough/dangerous sex that went wrong. He claims it was consensual. Prosecutors presenting a picture that he may not have gained consent and went ahead anyway (with the choking).
I’m still wondering how he can claim consent yet also claim to have been so pissed that he fell asleep in the shower after.
I doubt premeditation but certainly think possible that he instigated and controlled the strangulation and ‘caused’ death.So if the prosecution are trying to make a murder charge stick, is it a yes or no situation or can they fall back to a manslaughter or wrongful death charge? If it's all or nothing I think there is a significant chance of acquittal
If the act causing death is illegal then it can be manslaughter if it is not murder. That looks like an option here because the law doesn't allow people to consent to death or actual bodily harm unless there is a public policy reason to allow consent e.g. surgery. Strangulation being a recently added crime makes it harder to claim consent.
So if the other tinder date witness testifies to being asphyxiated and fearing for her life without consent I wonder how damaging that is to his case
Quite damaging, I would have thought. Harder to claim it was an accident when he previously had an issue with going too far. A basic point now would be that he should have learnt his lesson from the earlier date, and that a reasonable person would have learnt that and modified their actions in future dates. From my previous 4 point test:
- Yes, it's homicide.
- It looks culpable because he should have known better based on previous experience, and therefore can't be called an accident, and he may not have had her consent for the choking, so it's an unlawful act.
- This looks harder - the prosecution has to show that the act caused bodily injury and was sufficiently reckless to be murder or he actually intended to cause her death. By showing that he should have known better, recklessness is more on the table than earlier.
- If the jury agree that 2 is shown, then this is a minimum outcome.
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@Mokey said in Grace Millane:
@Godder If she was drunk (as the tox report confirmed) does that impact the 'consensual sex act' defence? Would have thought someone being impaired would negate the ability to consent?
For me that is a strong point. Aren't we trying to teach people about what consent really means? Being drunk and not saying no does not equate to saying yes.
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@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@Mokey said in Grace Millane:
@Godder If she was drunk (as the tox report confirmed) does that impact the 'consensual sex act' defence? Would have thought someone being impaired would negate the ability to consent?
For me that is a strong point. Aren't we trying to teach people about what consent really means? Being drunk and not saying no does not equate to saying yes.
She might have consented to sex but not to being choked . Chances are probably never asked about the choking anyway
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@jegga said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@Mokey said in Grace Millane:
@Godder If she was drunk (as the tox report confirmed) does that impact the 'consensual sex act' defence? Would have thought someone being impaired would negate the ability to consent?
For me that is a strong point. Aren't we trying to teach people about what consent really means? Being drunk and not saying no does not equate to saying yes.
She might have consented to sex but not to being choked . Chances are probably never asked about the choking anyway
The other injuries would suggest she was forcibly restrained against her will and ultimately died. Doesnt sound consensual
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Reading what is going on this morning in court, this guy deserves locking up simply for being an idiot of the highest degree.
The bullshit he spun to the cops and ever changing stories are the most ridiculous bunch of lies since Trump explained to Melania about not cheating.
Did he not even think that the hotel would have cameras? -
@Mokey correct, although the legal test is high, but the charges don't include sexual assault or sexual violation (rape), so it's hard to say that lack of consent to sexual activity is part of the prosecution case here.
The wording in legislation is "A person does not consent to sexual activity if the activity occurs while he or she is so affected by alcohol or some other drug that he or she cannot consent or refuse to consent to the activity."
If that was the case, the charges would probably include more than murder which suggests that the prosecution are pushing on the idea that the choking wasn't sexual activity, and was instead intended to cause death. ("sexual activity" is defined as either sexual connection aka sex, or anything that would be indecent assault without consent)
