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booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TeWaio" data-cid="547620" data-time="1450086567">
I completely agree with this. People who are saying "don't like the options, rather wait for the do-over in X years" (i.e. a couple of parliamentary cycles time) are out of their minds. 
Good on Key for actually making something happen rather than just talking about it.</blockquote>
 
What happens when those same people don't like those options in x0 years time. Or what about the other bunch of people who don't like thise options. You're never going to get absolute consensus. 
Personally i like the option. It's got:

silver fern on black
acknowledgement of tradition and history (southern cross)
a story of who we are and where we're from (a land proud of our natural beauty located 'neath the southern cross)
it doesn't look like anyone else's (Straya or any other bland combinations of stripes, quadrilaterals and two dimensional shapes)
a sense of newness and excitement 
But that's just me and I'm no vexologist. 
But i do hope it gets up.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Godder" data-cid="547369" data-time="1449949666">
<div>
Speaking as a leftie in the public service, I agree. The figure is tiny in the context of government spending.
</div>
</blockquote>
Christine Rankin spent more than that on earrings when she was with WINZ ;)

Godder

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="547624" data-time="1450089578">
Christine Rankin spent more than that on earrings when she was with WINZ ;)</blockquote>
 
Tuku Morgan's underpants!

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="547519" data-time="1450037808">
<div>
I am very confident you wont get another chance to change it. Politicians have seen how political the debate becomes and will avoid it like the plague for decades. You are kidding yourself if you think you will get a chance to vote for a silver fern flag in the next 40 years.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I'm a big Key fan, but I think he horribly mismanaged the narrative.
 
Still I don't think the debate has hurt him in the slightest - much like a republic debate it is a wonderful thing because it gives a government heading towards the end of it's natural lifecycle with a year focused on something else rather than the day-to-day running of the parliment.
 
Any savvy operator would pull this out of their back pocket if they wanted to give their party a year off during their 2nd or 3rd term.

Rembrandt

I think I just accidentally might have convinced my physio to vote for the change. All it took was providing some history of the current flag, dispelling the $26million cost (that has already been spent..in NZ therefor giving NZers employment) and pointing out between the union jack and the silver fern it is the latter which more represents me as a kiwi. 
I wonder what the referendum results would be if reasoned debate was as loud as the scaremongering?

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="547694" data-time="1450147436">
<div>
I wonder what the referendum results would be if reasoned debate was as loud as the scaremongering?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Do you think the debate really effects the voting though? I mean at the end of the day the question is a lot closer to "what is your favourite colour" than "do you support a value added tax or sales tax"?
 
Also is scaremongering the right word? The only scaremongering I've heard is the "you better vote for this, otherwise you won't get another chance".

taniwharugby

scaremongering isnt the right word, but I know what Rembrandt means, which is what the RSA were 'promoting' for people to spoil the vote and the social media 'campaign' showing how to spoil your voting papers.

Rembrandt

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="547704" data-time="1450151945">
Do you think the debate really effects the voting though? I mean at the end of the day the question is a lot closer to "what is your favourite colour" than "do you support a value added tax or sales tax"? 
Also is scaremongering the right word? The only scaremongering I've heard is the "you better vote for this, otherwise you won't get another chance".</blockquote>
 
Clearly you have a better class of facebook friends than I do! A small sample of the barrage I've been getting: 
Changing the flag will

illegitimise the treaty of Waitangi
make NZ a republic 
Changing the flag is
spitting on the graves of our fallen soldiers
a distraction to allow the TPPA to go through
taking money from cancer drug subsidies 
All of course with shocking pictures/"facts" etc 
I know any reasoned person who can be bothered doing a slight amount of research will know this is bollocks but unfortunately a substantial amount of people I know seem to get their news from facebook memes. What I have found however in a one to one situation if you point out the flaws in these arguments and raise the question as to why so many are making lies up to keep the flag then these people start to re-evaluate their stance.

Frye

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="547727" data-time="1450159244">
<div>
Clearly you have a better class of facebook friends than I do! A small sample of the barrage I've been getting: 
Changing the flag will

illegitimise the treaty of Waitangi
make NZ a republic 
Changing the flag is
spitting on the graves of our fallen soldiers
a distraction to allow the TPPA to go through
taking money from cancer drug subsidies 
All of course with shocking pictures/"facts" etc 
I know any reasoned person who can be bothered doing a slight amount of research will know this is bollocks but unfortunately a substantial amount of people I know seem to get their news from facebook memes. What I have found however in a one to one situation if you point out the flaws in these arguments and raise the question as to why so many are making lies up to keep the flag then these people start to re-evaluate their stance.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
DUE AUTHORITY
 
* Caps lock required

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="547727" data-time="1450159244">Clearly you have a better class of facebook friends than I do! A small sample of the barrage I've been getting: 
Changing the flag will

illegitimise the treaty of Waitangi
make NZ a republic 
Changing the flag is
spitting on the graves of our fallen soldiers
a distraction to allow the TPPA to go through
taking money from cancer drug subsidies 
All of course with shocking pictures/"facts" etc 
I know any reasoned person who can be bothered doing a slight amount of research will know this is bollocks but unfortunately a substantial amount of people I know seem to get their news from facebook memes. What I have found however in a one to one situation if you point out the flaws in these arguments and raise the question as to why so many are making lies up to keep the flag then these people start to re-evaluate their stance.</blockquote>
 
I don't think Keys handled it badly there's not much you can do to counter idiocy on that scale other than institute some sort of eugenics program to weed them out of the gene pool. The spitting on our war dead one is particularly stupid , if you type New Zealand war grave into google images you'll see there's no nz flag or even southern cross, they all have a fern on them as far as I could tell . 
Anyway after the social media campaign about red peak all that was proved that just like the election last year that social media is not the real world and twitter and Facebook campaigns just surround you with like minded people and have little real effect. Konys still a free live man is t he?

Rembrandt

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="547751" data-time="1450162934">
<div>
I don't think Keys handled it badly there's not much you can do to counter idiocy on that scale other than institute some sort of eugenics program to weed them out of the gene pool. The spitting on our war dead one is particularly stupid , if you type New Zealand war grave into google images you'll see there's no nz flag or even southern cross, they all have a fern on them as far as I could tell . 
Anyway after the social media campaign about red peak all that was proved that just like the election last year that social media is not the real world and twitter and Facebook campaigns just surround you with like minded people and have little real effect. Konys still a free live man is t he?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
True that thankfully, I was actually a bit worried about that first referendum had a sinking feeling that idiocy was going to prevail over all
 
Would it be unfair to have some state sponsored memes countering the bullshit?
 
Although this eugenics idea also has merit...but no doubt there would probably be some leftard social media campaign against that too...bloody hippies!

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="547765" data-time="1450170484">
<div>
True that thankfully, I was actually a bit worried about that first referendum had a sinking feeling that idiocy was going to prevail over all
 
Would it be unfair to have some state sponsored memes countering the bullshit?
 
Although this eugenics idea also has merit...but no doubt there would probably be some leftard social media campaign against that too...bloody hippies!
</div>
</blockquote>
It appears you guys are merely short of a Goebbels from a NZ you can truly believe in ;).

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rembrandt" data-cid="547765" data-time="1450170484">True that thankfully, I was actually a bit worried about that first referendum had a sinking feeling that idiocy was going to prevail over all 
 
Would it be unfair to have some state sponsored memes countering the bullshit? 
 
Although this eugenics idea also has merit...but no doubt there would probably be some leftard social media campaign against that too...bloody hippies!</blockquote>
 
Yeah they can tweet #letfuckwitsbreed all they want and it won't change a damn thing . Govt memes is a good call too , # redpeakgivesyouherpes or # votingGreencausesautism are things I would have retweeted.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="547766" data-time="1450171129">It appears you guys are merely short of a Goebbels from a NZ you can truly believe in ;).</blockquote>
 
Nazis always had great dress sense, Hugo Boss vs Maos green suit anyone ?

Crucial

Can we now call Godwins Law on this thread?

jegga

We aren't quite there yet , I don't think you can self Godwin. By the way I call dibs on a bit of lebensraum on the Gold Coast if we ever do go down that path and start invading our neighbours. Obviously the untermensch won't be welcome there anymore , there's plenty of room for them in the middle of the country.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="547772" data-time="1450172767">
<div>
We aren't quite there yet , I don't think you can self Godwin. By the way I call dibs on a bit of lebensraum on the Gold Coast if we ever do go down that path and start invading our neighbours. Obviously the untermensch won't be welcome there anymore , there's plenty of room for them in the middle of the country.
</div>
</blockquote>
Aren't we already doing that by stealth?
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="547769" data-time="1450171923">
<div>
Nazis always had great dress sense, Hugo Boss vs Maos green suit anyone ?
</div>
</blockquote>
Add in the Italians too and the fascists definitely win in the fashion stakes - but if the Russian Front taught us anything it's better to be warm than stylish.

taniwharugby

apparently if it had been First Past the Post, Lockwoods other design woulda been the winner.
 
Given how close this turned out to be, I suspect the 'spoiled votes' may have turned out to be crucial to the flag that has been chosen.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/75024012/flag-referendum-how-the-new-zealand-public-voted'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/75024012/flag-referendum-how-the-new-zealand-public-voted</a>

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="547800" data-time="1450210505">
<div>
 
 
Given how close this turned out to be, I suspect the 'spoiled votes' may have turned out to be crucial to the flag that has been chosen.
 
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
How's that? The 'spoiled votes' are removed from the process. Those people were either going to do the stupid RSA inspired thing or not take part at all.
 
I see people are now complaining that they didn't understand how preferential voting works. This is a great example of how this whole process has been a shambles. Every step of the way there have been problems after the step because no one has taken things seriously enough until they realise they aren't getting what they want. I don't think it is necessarily the fault of the process but an interesting study of human behaviour.
 
First there were the public consultations to get an idea of what people wanted in a flag - some points to mark the designs against. Hardly anyone took interest in this which can partly account for the messages of the silverfern on black being swamped by (what I think are minority) views that it is a sporting emblem only.
Then during the design stage the openness of the process was a downfall as it afforded too much publicity to the joke entries which, in turn, made it all a bit of a joke. Everyone sat back and hoped that the type of flag they wanted would come through.
 
Ideally (and probably what was hoped for by the architects of the process) a strong message would have been gained from step one that would translate through to designers eg if a desire for our defacto national flag of a silver fern on black had come through then more designs of that nature would have been put forward and the best examples chosen.
I would have liked to see the options put forward to us as a good Silverfern, a hybrid with the traditional (such as the Lockwood), a completely new 'shapes/colours' idea such as Red Peak, a 'maori' based design. 
That would provide clear options with a majority decision on which way to go.
 
In retrospect once that initial public meeting didn't grasp on, things should have been put on hold and a re-think of the process made. They were the key to getting good designs.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="547800" data-time="1450210505">
apparently if it had been First Past the Post, Lockwoods other design woulda been the winner. 
Given how close this turned out to be, I suspect the 'spoiled votes' may have turned out to be crucial to the flag that has been chosen. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/75024012/flag-referendum-how-the-new-zealand-public-voted">http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/75024012/flag-referendum-how-the-new-zealand-public-voted</a></blockquote>
 
Only in choosing which of the Lockwoods though. 
I think it was rotated who posted this:<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://electionresults.govt.nz/2015_flag_referendum1/results-by-count-report.html'>http://electionresults.govt.nz/2015_flag_referendum1/results-by-count-report.html</a> 
Shows that even adding the spoiled votes to red peak couldnt have made a difference.

The Silver Fern

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