Flag
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="547766" data-time="1450171129"><p>It appears you guys are merely short of a Goebbels from a NZ you can truly believe in ;).</p></blockquote>
<br>
Nazis always had great dress sense, Hugo Boss vs Maos green suit anyone ? -
We aren't quite there yet , I don't think you can self Godwin. By the way I call dibs on a bit of lebensraum on the Gold Coast if we ever do go down that path and start invading our neighbours. Obviously the untermensch won't be welcome there anymore , there's plenty of room for them in the middle of the country.
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="547772" data-time="1450172767">
<div>
<p>We aren't quite there yet , I don't think you can self Godwin.<strong> By the way I call dibs on a bit of lebensraum on the Gold Coast if we ever do go down that path and start invading our neighbours.</strong> Obviously the untermensch won't be welcome there anymore , there's plenty of room for them in the middle of the country.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Aren't we already doing that by stealth?</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="547769" data-time="1450171923">
<div>
<p>Nazis always had great dress sense, Hugo Boss vs Maos green suit anyone ?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Add in the Italians too and the fascists definitely win in the fashion stakes - but if the Russian Front taught us anything it's better to be warm than stylish. </p> -
<p>apparently if it had been First Past the Post, Lockwoods other design woulda been the winner.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Given how close this turned out to be, I suspect the 'spoiled votes' may have turned out to be crucial to the flag that has been chosen.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/75024012/flag-referendum-how-the-new-zealand-public-voted'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/75024012/flag-referendum-how-the-new-zealand-public-voted</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="547800" data-time="1450210505">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Given how close this turned out to be, I suspect the 'spoiled votes' may have turned out to be crucial to the flag that has been chosen.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>How's that? The 'spoiled votes' are removed from the process. Those people were either going to do the stupid RSA inspired thing or not take part at all.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I see people are now complaining that they didn't understand how preferential voting works. This is a great example of how this whole process has been a shambles. Every step of the way there have been problems after the step because no one has taken things seriously enough until they realise they aren't getting what they want. I don't think it is necessarily the fault of the process but an interesting study of human behaviour.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>First there were the public consultations to get an idea of what people wanted in a flag - some points to mark the designs against. Hardly anyone took interest in this which can partly account for the messages of the silverfern on black being swamped by (what I think are minority) views that it is a sporting emblem only.</p>
<p>Then during the design stage the openness of the process was a downfall as it afforded too much publicity to the joke entries which, in turn, made it all a bit of a joke. Everyone sat back and hoped that the type of flag they wanted would come through.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ideally (and probably what was hoped for by the architects of the process) a strong message would have been gained from step one that would translate through to designers eg if a desire for our defacto national flag of a silver fern on black had come through then more designs of that nature would have been put forward and the best examples chosen.</p>
<p>I would have liked to see the options put forward to us as a good Silverfern, a hybrid with the traditional (such as the Lockwood), a completely new 'shapes/colours' idea such as Red Peak, a 'maori' based design. </p>
<p>That would provide clear options with a majority decision on which way to go.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In retrospect once that initial public meeting didn't grasp on, things should have been put on hold and a re-think of the process made. They were the key to getting good designs.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="547800" data-time="1450210505"><p>
apparently if it had been First Past the Post, Lockwoods other design woulda been the winner.<br><br>
Given how close this turned out to be, I suspect the 'spoiled votes' may have turned out to be crucial to the flag that has been chosen.<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/75024012/flag-referendum-how-the-new-zealand-public-voted">http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/75024012/flag-referendum-how-the-new-zealand-public-voted</a></p></blockquote>
<br>
Only in choosing which of the Lockwoods though.<br><br>
I think it was rotated who posted this:<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://electionresults.govt.nz/2015_flag_referendum1/results-by-count-report.html'>http://electionresults.govt.nz/2015_flag_referendum1/results-by-count-report.html</a><br><br>
Shows that even adding the spoiled votes to red peak couldnt have made a difference. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="547804" data-time="1450212833">
<div>
<p>How's that? The 'spoiled votes' are removed from the process. Those people were either going to do the stupid RSA inspired thing or not take part at all.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>If they voted, rather than 'spoiled' or abstaining in protest.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>@Booboo, yeah I did put that it was with the other Lockwood design.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="547804" data-time="1450212833"><p>
I see people are now complaining that they didn't understand how preferential voting works. This is a great example of how this whole process has been a shambles. Every step of the way there have been problems after the step because no one has taken things seriously enough until they realise they aren't getting what they want. I don't think it is necessarily the fault of the process but an interesting study of human behaviour.</p></blockquote>
<br>
What's that thing about getting the democracy you deserve?<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote"><p>the messages of the silverfern on black being swamped by (what I think are minority) views that it is a sporting emblem only.</p></blockquote>
<br>
Then count me in the minority.<br><br>
There is a bit of an opinion here on TSF that it is THE symbol. But we're all sporty types. And the option we have now has that symbolism in it anyway.<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote"><p>joke entries</p></blockquote>
<br>
Yeah. I get that. Perhaps additional time and more avenues for considering the more serious options. <br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote"><p>
I would have liked to see the options put forward to us as a good Silverfern, a hybrid with the traditional (such as the Lockwood), a completely new 'shapes/colours' idea such as Red Peak, a 'maori' based design.</p></blockquote>
<br>
Aren't those pretty much the options we got? (I do get your point about a 'good' silverfern ... but of those complaining about the options did anyone put forward one they would be happy with? Or do we just complain about other people's who were engaged enough to participate?)<br><br><br><br><br>
I'll probably turn into Winger2.0 on this topic now as i like the Lockwood option for reasons given above .... -
<p>Was there a black flag with a Silver Fern to choose from? I remember quite a few got discounted due to copyright issues with the ABs flag.</p>
-
<p>think this shows all the options</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://poll.aardwolfresearch.co.nz/FlagsDecision.aspx'>http://poll.aardwolfresearch.co.nz/FlagsDecision.aspx</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>good to see so many took it seriously</p>
<p> </p>
<p><img src="http://poll.aardwolfresearch.co.nz/img/_tmp/732.jpg" alt="732.jpg"></p>
<p><img src="http://poll.aardwolfresearch.co.nz/img/_tmp/357.jpg" alt="357.jpg"></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="547881" data-time="1450237503">
<div>
<p>Was there a black flag with a Silver Fern to choose from? I remember quite a few got discounted due to copyright issues with the ABs flag.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_flag_referendums,_2015–16#Long_list'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_flag_referendums,_2015–16#Long_list</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>This was the list of 40.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The best silver fern on a plain black background was Kyle Lockwood's. IMO.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="547883" data-time="1450238483"><p><a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_flag_referendums,_2015–16#Long_list">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_flag_referendums,_2015–16#Long_list</a><br><br>
This was the list of 40.<br><br>
The best silver fern on a plain black background was Kyle Lockwood's. IMO.</p></blockquote>
<br>
Yep, that Lockwood silver fern was fine. I was never a fan of the whole thing to begin with, but I don't see how the process has been flawed. Shit, they even let Red Peak in when it gained traction in social media. I won't be particularly happy if the Lockwood collage wins, but I won't be blaming the process for that. -
<p>I liked the Sven Baker fern, but the colours he chose black and grey (silver if you will) were a terrible mix. I'm one person who didn't want a sliver fern on black background, just don't like a completely black flag as the national flag, fully support it as the de facto sporting flag though.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>They stuffed up by having Key fronting the campaign, by having a very loose set of rules for proposed flags (basically no text, no insults, no photos from memory), which allowed all the joke designs, and then the 4 flags they chose were basically 2 the same, and 2 poor choices (as witnessed by the diabolical votes they got). Somnething like fern, koru, fern + stars, and a red peak-like flag would have been better.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I wanted a simple fern type flag, but I'll vote for the Lockwood choice.</p> -
<p>Looking at that long list again (without checking what may have been missed in the extra long list), I can't actually see many others that I would consider</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think this one is quite good (although maybe a version in red,white and black) <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/NZ_flag_design_Huihui_Together_by_Sven_Baker.svg/120px-NZ_flag_design_Huihui_Together_by_Sven_Baker.svg.png" alt="120px-NZ_flag_design_Huihui_Together_by_"></p>
<p> </p>
<p>The Lockwood plain fern <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/NZ_flag_design_Silver_Fern_(Black_%26_White)_by_Kyle_Lockwood.svg/120px-NZ_flag_design_Silver_Fern_(Black_%26_White)_by_Kyle_Lockwood.svg.png" alt="120px-NZ_flag_design_Silver_Fern_%28Blac"></p>
<p> </p>
<p>This is the only other one that got a second glance and I wonder whether a version with blue replacing the grey would have made it more accessible. (something about the balance of it appeals) <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/NZ_flag_design_Tukutuku_by_Pax_Zwanikken.svg/120px-NZ_flag_design_Tukutuku_by_Pax_Zwanikken.svg.png" alt="120px-NZ_flag_design_Tukutuku_by_Pax_Zwa"></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I also think this is a very smart design, but given the angst over black flags it would never make it (I think the fern on black has enough weight of history and usage to overcome) <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/NZ_flag_design_Southern_Cross_Horizon_by_Sven_Baker.jpg/120px-NZ_flag_design_Southern_Cross_Horizon_by_Sven_Baker.jpg" alt="120px-NZ_flag_design_Southern_Cross_Hori"></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="547946" data-time="1450292701">
<div>
<p>I also think this is a very smart design, but given the angst over black flags it would never make it (I think the fern on black has enough weight of history and usage to overcome) <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/NZ_flag_design_Southern_Cross_Horizon_by_Sven_Baker.jpg/120px-NZ_flag_design_Southern_Cross_Horizon_by_Sven_Baker.jpg" alt="120px-NZ_flag_design_Southern_Cross_Hori"></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>There are variants of this that very much could work. Aesthetically Fern + Southern Cross just looks like overkill. I think you have to pick one and let it breathe.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Centred white stars on a black background (or red stars on a dark blue background), with or without the horizontal strikethrough would all be winners IMO.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="547946" data-time="1450292701">
<div>
<p>This is the only other one that got a second glance and<strong> I wonder whether a version with blue replacing the grey would have made it more accessible</strong>. (something about the balance of it appeals) <img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/NZ_flag_design_Tukutuku_by_Pax_Zwanikken.svg/120px-NZ_flag_design_Tukutuku_by_Pax_Zwanikken.svg.png" alt="120px-NZ_flag_design_Tukutuku_by_Pax_Zwa"></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>You suggest swapping the mini-UK flag in the corner for a mini-French one?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="547953" data-time="1450296205">
<div>
<p>You suggest swapping the mini-UK flag in the corner for a mini-French one?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Not sure why it would be French apart from the same colours, but then those colours are on many flags. You could make an argument that they represent the colours of France, Netherlands and Britian. All countries that explored and settled NZ.</p> -
