World Rugby Board elections
-
Over the past few weeks, Billy Vunipola has played a supporting role in rugby's version of House of Cards. The No 8 turned political pawn as his name was touted in manifesto promises for the World Rugby elections. As a sweetener to the Pacific Islands, Sir Bill Beaumont proposed an eligibility change allowing the England star to play for his Tongan homeland. But it may have been a good idea to first ask the man himself. 'From my point of view, you choose your path and you have to stick to it,' Vunipola told Sportsmail. 'Say I get dropped by England because someone better and younger is coming through. I don't think it would be right for me to then turn around and say "Right, I've had my go with England, I'm going to go back to Tonga". 'It's easy to just say, "Come on, guys, let's have the best players at the World Cup, amazing, let's do this" but it affects a lot of people. 'When I play for England, I am stopping someone like Ben Morgan. If I go back and play for Tonga, I am also stopping an opportunity for a player whose only goal was to play for Tonga. I don't think that's right. 'The reason I don't play for Tonga is well documented. The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family. 'Unless we have a system where everyone gets the same amount of money, people will always choose the more stable option. 'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.' (...)(...)@Stargazer said in World Rugby Board elections:
Over the past few weeks, Billy Vunipola has played a supporting role in rugby's version of House of Cards. The No 8 turned political pawn as his name was touted in manifesto promises for the World Rugby elections. As a sweetener to the Pacific Islands, Sir Bill Beaumont proposed an eligibility change allowing the England star to play for his Tongan homeland. But it may have been a good idea to first ask the man himself. 'From my point of view, you choose your path and you have to stick to it,' Vunipola told Sportsmail. 'Say I get dropped by England because someone better and younger is coming through. I don't think it would be right for me to then turn around and say "Right, I've had my go with England, I'm going to go back to Tonga". 'It's easy to just say, "Come on, guys, let's have the best players at the World Cup, amazing, let's do this" but it affects a lot of people. 'When I play for England, I am stopping someone like Ben Morgan. If I go back and play for Tonga, I am also stopping an opportunity for a player whose only goal was to play for Tonga. I don't think that's right. 'The reason I don't play for Tonga is well documented. The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family. 'Unless we have a system where everyone gets the same amount of money, people will always choose the more stable option. 'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.' (...)(...)@Stargazer said in World Rugby Board elections:
Over the past few weeks, Billy Vunipola has played a supporting role in rugby's version of House of Cards. The No 8 turned political pawn as his name was touted in manifesto promises for the World Rugby elections. As a sweetener to the Pacific Islands, Sir Bill Beaumont proposed an eligibility change allowing the England star to play for his Tongan homeland. But it may have been a good idea to first ask the man himself. 'From my point of view, you choose your path and you have to stick to it,' Vunipola told Sportsmail. 'Say I get dropped by England because someone better and younger is coming through. I don't think it would be right for me to then turn around and say "Right, I've had my go with England, I'm going to go back to Tonga". 'It's easy to just say, "Come on, guys, let's have the best players at the World Cup, amazing, let's do this" but it affects a lot of people. 'When I play for England, I am stopping someone like Ben Morgan. If I go back and play for Tonga, I am also stopping an opportunity for a player whose only goal was to play for Tonga. I don't think that's right. 'The reason I don't play for Tonga is well documented. The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family. 'Unless we have a system where everyone gets the same amount of money, people will always choose the more stable option. 'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.' (...)(...)I could pick 5 holes in Billys argument there, but I've made those points before!
-
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
-
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
-
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
-
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
so what's your "line". When do you say "nah champ, you made your choice?"
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
so what's your "line". When do you say "nah champ, you made your choice?"
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
-
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
so, rugby league then?
actually no, you're making up a fantasy. As you were
-
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
I'm sorry but that is a risk that every pro footy player takes. It applies to plenty of guys who don't have the benefit of being dual-qualified - so why should we should we have special rules for dual-qualified players? Would you be happy for Brad Shields to return to NZ and have a crack at the ABs now that (it seems) his English international career is over?
-
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
Then we just end up with a the farcical situation where people are changing teams from year to year, tournament to tournament. You're living in fantasy land.
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
I'm sorry but that is a risk that every pro footy player takes. It applies to plenty of guys who don't have the benefit of being dual-qualified - so why should we should we have special rules for dual-qualified players? Would you be happy for Brad Shields to return to NZ and have a crack at the ABs now that (it seems) his English international career is over?
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
Love Billy’s honesty there. It’s a bit rich IMO for guys who take the cash and play for NZ, Aus, etc (often the country of their birth or upbringing) to start whinging and express a desire to play for an Island nation
Equally rich for the guys that made it with the Tier 1 countries to then turn their backs on their country of birth, and in particular, on those guys that didn't have the same lucrative careers that they did?
how are they "turning their back"?
The way he phrased it was that they have a choice, and the majority choose to follow the money:
"The biggest export from Tonga is rugby players and it's our job to find where we can make as much money to support our family.....
...'It's tough, but you have a choice. You can't make the call to play for England, then turn around and say you've been hard done by. If you make that call, you stick with it.'"
Which is totally fair enough, I have no issue with that of you've fulfilled qualification requirements.
So not so much "turning their backs" I guess, as "proactively choosing another country"
My main point was that it's very easy for him , having had a successful international career, and made truckloads of cash, to say that he shouldn't be allowed to go back. But what about a bloke who played 1 test for a Tier 1, got an injury and then got dropped by his club? I imagine he'd feel pretty differently, and given an opportunity to represent Tonga in a RWC, may well jump at it.
I'm sorry but that is a risk that every pro footy player takes. It applies to plenty of guys who don't have the benefit of being dual-qualified - so why should we should we have special rules for dual-qualified players? Would you be happy for Brad Shields to return to NZ and have a crack at the ABs now that (it seems) his English international career is over?
Sure
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
Then we just end up with a the farcical situation where people are changing teams from year to year, tournament to tournament. You're living in fantasy land.
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@mariner4life this got done to death a few months back, can't remember who I was arguing with now!
But I'm not even convinced there should be a line. What's the line actually for? To protect the 2nd tier of players that a Billy would be keeping out? Or to protect the 2nd tier nations somehow?
I'm generally of the view that we shouldn't stop someone representing a country they have ties to. And if Billy wants to go back to Tonga, and make his home there, pay taxes there etc, he should also be allowed to play rugby for them
Then we just end up with a the farcical situation where people are changing teams from year to year, tournament to tournament. You're living in fantasy land.
No.
You have to qualify still. Stand down periods apply, residency qualifications have to be met. You have to actually make the country your home.
-
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
-
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
Well, I think it's safe to say that 100% of the people we are talking about here would be residing and playing club footy in another country, so the residence thing is moot (at least in the case of the Islands).
-
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
Hang on, you're saying that for any international team, all their players should be living in the country they represent? That would completely change the face of rugby (and decimate most teams outside SANZAR and 6N (although I'd say even Italy would be heavily affected).
-
It's a bit tough on Tongan players. Hard to play there and develop an international career. I can only think of a couple of tests played there in the last decade. Going back to tonga to start a test career might impact horribly on a players form. People need to put themselves in the shoes of the players with the passion to play the highest level they can and stop pumping the same excuses to protect the self interests of those calling the shots.
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
Hang on, you're saying that for any international team, all their players should be living in the country they represent? That would completely change the face of rugby (and decimate most teams outside SANZAR and 6N (although I'd say even Italy would be heavily affected).
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
So, in that case, Charlie Piutau would have to move back to Nukualofa if he wanted to switch to Tonga?
I don't know where that is, but assuming it's in Tonga, then yes, absolutely, you should be resident in the country you choose to represent, unless you're playing club rugby only abroad
Surely that's a given?
Hang on, you're saying that for any international team, all their players should be living in the country they represent? That would completely change the face of rugby (and decimate most teams outside SANZAR and 6N (although I'd say even Italy would be heavily affected).
No, I didn't say that.
I said that if you're only playing club rugby abroad, then you're fine to represent whatever country you qualify for, be it birth, residence, whatever.
But if you choose to represent a country, then to them flip and play for another country, then some criteria must apply. And I think residence would be a great start.
Take the hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, goes to school in NZ, plays 15 games for the AB's, then decides at 24yrs old to return to his village in Samoa.
We have decided that he should no longer be able to practice his profession at the highest level, because why? What's the reason why he couldn't play for Samoa after a period of stand-down? What arw we protecting against ???
It's insane to me
-
And to be completely clear, I'm not the one trying to make it harder for guys to go back and represent the PI nations - most of you seem to be of the opinion that you "make your bed, now lie in it".
I'm putting forward the position that this seems way too harsh, and there should be some leeway.
Residency is just one way to meet somewhere in the middle.
