World Rugby Board elections
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@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo no huge problem, but I thought it's the kind of thing that we're looking to try and discourage.
But why?
Bahrain’s Olympic track and field team is composed primarily of runners from Kenya and Ethiopia, along with more from Jamaica, Morocco and Nigeria. The team includes almost no runners born in Bahrain.How some Middle East countries are 'buying' Olympic medals
Countries like Qatar and Bahrain have been spending millions of dollars to buy top African athletes and win Olympic medals.
Eunice Kirwa won a silver medal in Sunday’s women’s marathon. She, too, was born in Kenya, but transferred her eligibility to Bahrain. Including past Olympics, every medal ever won by Bahrain in the Olympics was by individuals born in Africa.
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@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
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@nzzp said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo no huge problem, but I thought it's the kind of thing that we're looking to try and discourage.
But why?
Bahrain’s Olympic track and field team is composed primarily of runners from Kenya and Ethiopia, along with more from Jamaica, Morocco and Nigeria. The team includes almost no runners born in Bahrain.
Countries like Qatar and Bahrain have been spending millions of dollars to buy top African athletes and win Olympic medals.
Eunice Kirwa won a silver medal in Sunday’s women’s marathon. She, too, was born in Kenya, but transferred her eligibility to Bahrain. Including past Olympics, every medal ever won by Bahrain in the Olympics was by individuals born in Africa.
Why is that directed at me???
I'm the guy trying to get the runners back to represent Jamaica!
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@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
As always, comes down to funding though right. There are pluses and minuses for both. Footballis a great example - players will almost always play for their home countries, far fewer "mercanaries". But then players are effectively compensated at the club level, which puts their loyalties first and foremost at the club, not the country.
Vunipola's comments are him being 100% pragmatic. Never bite the hands that feeds.
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@MajorRage said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
As always, comes down to funding though right. There are pluses and minuses for both. Footballis a great example - players will almost always play for their home countries, far fewer "mercanaries". But then players are effectively compensated at the club level, which puts their loyalties first and foremost at the club, not the country.
Vunipola's comments are him being 100% pragmatic. Never bite the hands that feeds.
I have ZERO issue with a player chasing $ - provided they qualify for a country, they are good to go.
I just think that once that initial choice is made, it shouldn't be a lifetime decision, they should be allowed to move countries for whatever reason, and after fulfilling some set of quantifying requirements, should be allowed to chase a weirdly shaped ball around a rectangle field with a bunch of idiots cheering them on.
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@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@nzzp said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
Take the hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, goes to school in NZ, plays 15 games for the AB's, then decides at 24yrs old to return to his village in Samoa.
We have decided that he should no longer be able to practice his profession at the highest level, because why? What's the reason why he couldn't play for Samoa after a period of stand-down? What arw we protecting against ???
It's insane to me
Other hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, schooled in NZ, plays an 8 game season for Samoa and stars. Now he's good, he declares his residence in Auckland to make money for the ABs.
Fast forward 4 years, he's not the cream of the crop any more, and solid squad player (somewhere outside the 23). Decides to cash in, so moves to London, declares through a grandparent he's now English.
Still happy with that scenario?
Edit: or England come knocking dangling fat cheques in front of him while he's playing for NZ...
I don't like it. International sport is one country, with difficulties in changing for a reason
That's obviously a reach, but I'm still actually ok with it. We live in an international world. No other business other than sport, restricts your rights to ply your trade like this. Fuck, even politics doesn't, though you might have to renounce citizenship or get rid of a passport.
There are no restrictions on plying their trade, just representing their country.
I really think this is only really an issue for the PIs and I'd agree that they are perhaps a special case in that it is impossible for the guys to ply their trade and make the sort of money they warrant and remain on island. Inevitably they will gravitate to places where they can earn good money. That issue isn't going away anytime soon, so it is about how to protect the international side of things for the PIs.
The idea of representing a T1 nation and then reverting to a T2 nation has merit but IMO it also has problems. The emotional side of me suggests it will encourage a mercenary attitude and potentially a dilution of the International game but perhaps that is a reach. The more rational side of me (yes, there is such a thing) feels that it may do more harm in the long run than good. Will it encourage more guys to opt for a T1 show knowing that if it doesn't work out there is a fallback option? Will it result in a dearth of younger talent available to the PIs and instead see their national teams full of over the hill guys that waltz back into the set up and block younger guys from coming through?
Then you have the qualification criteria. What will it entail? How long a residential qualification? Is residential qualification actually workable? How will the guys earn living if they have to be based on island? Would there be a stand down period between representing the T1 nation and starting for the T2? I guess there would have to be, but for how long? What about the guy who is playing for the T1 nation and they still want him but he decides he want out?
A great idea in principle but I'm not sure it's actually that workable.
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@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
Well no - under status quo, player that goes to Ireland and looks to play for Samoa et al still has an avenue back. You want to change it so that player now has to move to Samoa, not play professional rugby and wait 5 years.
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@voodoo Fair enough. I don't disagree in principle, but I'd be lying if I said I don't like the one-country rule.
I agree it makes things difficult for T2 (especially as long as there is no revenue sharing) but there always be circular arguments. Centrally funded countries (like NZ) have zero incentive to fund building up players who won't play for NZ.
Who loses then?
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@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
Well no - under status quo, player that goes to Ireland and looks to play for Samoa et al still has an avenue back. You want to change it so that player now has to move to Samoa, not play professional rugby and wait 5 years.
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
Well no - under status quo, player that goes to Ireland and looks to play for Samoa et al still has an avenue back. You want to change it so that player now has to move to Samoa, not play professional rugby and wait 5 years.
No, only if they represent Ireland then want to switch should they have to fulfill that residency requirement back in Samoa. Seems weird to allow someone to move from Samoa to Ireland to play club and test footy, then to stay in Ireland but play for Samoa???
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@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo nah, say that player plays for the AB's (or Ireland). There is currently a way that player can continue playing professional rugby and represent Samoa. Under your scheme, no chance.
What's that way currently?
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@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo sevens/olympics.
But a guy who plays for the AB's/Ireland at test level can't play for Samoa/Tonga ever again
Why?
They can though.
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@Catogrande said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@nzzp said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
Take the hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, goes to school in NZ, plays 15 games for the AB's, then decides at 24yrs old to return to his village in Samoa.
We have decided that he should no longer be able to practice his profession at the highest level, because why? What's the reason why he couldn't play for Samoa after a period of stand-down? What arw we protecting against ???
It's insane to me
Other hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, schooled in NZ, plays an 8 game season for Samoa and stars. Now he's good, he declares his residence in Auckland to make money for the ABs.
Fast forward 4 years, he's not the cream of the crop any more, and solid squad player (somewhere outside the 23). Decides to cash in, so moves to London, declares through a grandparent he's now English.
Still happy with that scenario?
Edit: or England come knocking dangling fat cheques in front of him while he's playing for NZ...
I don't like it. International sport is one country, with difficulties in changing for a reason
That's obviously a reach, but I'm still actually ok with it. We live in an international world. No other business other than sport, restricts your rights to ply your trade like this. Fuck, even politics doesn't, though you might have to renounce citizenship or get rid of a passport.
There are no restrictions on plying their trade, just representing their country.
I really think this is only really an issue for the PIs and I'd agree that they are perhaps a special case in that it is impossible for the guys to ply their trade and make the sort of money they warrant and remain on island. Inevitably they will gravitate to places where they can earn good money. That issue isn't going away anytime soon, so it is about how to protect the international side of things for the PIs.
The idea of representing a T1 nation and then reverting to a T2 nation has merit but IMO it also has problems. The emotional side of me suggests it will encourage a mercenary attitude and potentially a dilution of the International game but perhaps that is a reach. The more rational side of me (yes, there is such a thing) feels that it may do more harm in the long run than good. Will it encourage more guys to opt for a T1 show knowing that if it doesn't work out there is a fallback option? Will it result in a dearth of younger talent available to the PIs and instead see their national teams full of over the hill guys that waltz back into the set up and block younger guys from coming through?
Then you have the qualification criteria. What will it entail? How long a residential qualification? Is residential qualification actually workable? How will the guys earn living if they have to be based on island? Would there be a stand down period between representing the T1 nation and starting for the T2? I guess there would have to be, but for how long? What about the guy who is playing for the T1 nation and they still want him but he decides he want out?
A great idea in principle but I'm not sure it's actually that workable.
The other issue with this Tier 1 to Tier 2 proposal is at what point does a Tier 2 nation become Tier 1?
We keep hearing about how great Tier 1 nations would be if they could select everyone who could potentially quality for them. Well if that's the case, then surely those Tier 2 sides would starting beating the Tier 1 teams, in which case maybe they can no longer be considered Tier 2? But if that's the case, then why should they be able to still select guys who had previously played in Tier 1 teams?
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@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
Well no - under status quo, player that goes to Ireland and looks to play for Samoa et al still has an avenue back. You want to change it so that player now has to move to Samoa, not play professional rugby and wait 5 years.
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
Well no - under status quo, player that goes to Ireland and looks to play for Samoa et al still has an avenue back. You want to change it so that player now has to move to Samoa, not play professional rugby and wait 5 years.
No, only if they represent Ireland then want to switch should they have to fulfill that residency requirement back in Samoa. Seems weird to allow someone to move from Samoa to Ireland to play club and test footy, then to stay in Ireland but play for Samoa???
But in that case no one is going to switch back to Samoa are they? Because that would preclude them playing club or franchise footy and earning heaps of coin elsewhere
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@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo sevens/olympics.
But a guy who plays for the AB's/Ireland at test level can't play for Samoa/Tonga ever again
Why?
They can though.
Isn't this the current rule ?
When is a player ‘captured’ by a country?
Captured is the term used when a player becomes tied to one country and can no longer represent another nation on the international stage. This happens when a player plays for one of three teams:
The senior 15-a-side national representative team of a union. This is quite simple and basically means playing in a Test match, eg England v Ireland in the Six Nations.
The next senior 15-a-side national representative team of a union. This is where it gets slightly complicated as each union may have a different idea of what to nominate as their second team. It could be an A team, like England Saxons, but it’s up to each union to decide which team they want to designate as their ‘next senior’ side. In the past some unions have nominated their U20 side, but since the start of 2018 they are no longer able to do that.
The senior national representative sevens team of a union where the player is aged 20 or older or, if at an Olympics or Sevens World Cup, the player has reached the age of majority (18). -
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
Well no - under status quo, player that goes to Ireland and looks to play for Samoa et al still has an avenue back. You want to change it so that player now has to move to Samoa, not play professional rugby and wait 5 years.
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
Well no - under status quo, player that goes to Ireland and looks to play for Samoa et al still has an avenue back. You want to change it so that player now has to move to Samoa, not play professional rugby and wait 5 years.
No, only if they represent Ireland then want to switch should they have to fulfill that residency requirement back in Samoa. Seems weird to allow someone to move from Samoa to Ireland to play club and test footy, then to stay in Ireland but play for Samoa???
But in that case no one is going to switch back to Samoa are they? Because that would preclude them playing club or franchise footy and earning heaps of coin elsewhere
Who knows? Maybe a 33yr who has played 10yrs of club footy in Europe and made heaps of cash wants to go and give back to his community and also represent his country of birth?
The better question is why would we want to stop him if he did?
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@voodoo I assume @Bones is referring to the Olympic 7s loophole. It's possible to play for another country, but it's not easy. For example, they must have a passport of the new country they wish to represent, participate in an "Olympic event" (defined by WR Schedule 2) and respect a stand-down period of 3 years.
See particularly Regulations 8.7 and 8.12
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The only way to ever solve this is to make sure you get paid the same whether you play a test for Samoa or for England. Then you can choose to play for the country where you live, and who taught you to play rugby, or the country where your parents were born.
