'Super Rugby' 2021
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As predicted, by everyone but NZR it seems, AR have come out and said it’s 5 teams or 0, your choice NZ. NZR have totally fucked this by making it all public. Dicks
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
As predicted, by everyone but NZR it seems, AR have come out and said it’s 5 teams or 0, your choice NZ. NZR have totally fucked this by making it all public. Dicks
5 Australian and 5 NZ teams for 2021 is fine.
BUT
Removal of conference system. No guaranteed finals spots for Oz teams.
A promise to support a Pacific and an Asian franchise by 2023
Franchises to have common, basic standard for player welfare.
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@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life you think it will damage NZ? will it be much worse than previous comps?
I mean if both teams go it alone. Australia need our quality, (sorry Aussies, it's arrogant but it's true);
I'm not sure we do. I agree NZ sides are generally better (though not by as much as some here seem to think), but nobody I know has had any issues with the quality of rugby in SuperAU. Sure there's been a few stinkers, but you will get that in any competition.
There's a world where we have 5 Aussie teams, the Fiji Drua (already involved in NRC), and one more team from Asia (Sunwolves?) and it's a pretty tidy little comp. Yeah it may not be world beating and I still prefer TT but I think it probably ends up a more solid commercial proposition than what NZ could muster. Not by a huge amount, but a little bit.
Just to clarify this - in order to avoid having to ditch one of your second rate Australian teams, you will set up a comp with two third rate teams from the Pacific and Asia, one team propped up by a billionaire for the time being, and one team in a state where no one gives even half a shit about rugby. :face_with_stuck-out_tongue:
@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life you think it will damage NZ? will it be much worse than previous comps?
I mean if both teams go it alone. Australia need our quality, (sorry Aussies, it's arrogant but it's true);
I'm not sure we do. I agree NZ sides are generally better (though not by as much as some here seem to think), but nobody I know has had any issues with the quality of rugby in SuperAU. Sure there's been a few stinkers, but you will get that in any competition.
There's a world where we have 5 Aussie teams, the Fiji Drua (already involved in NRC), and one more team from Asia (Sunwolves?) and it's a pretty tidy little comp. Yeah it may not be world beating and I still prefer TT but I think it probably ends up a more solid commercial proposition than what NZ could muster. Not by a huge amount, but a little bit.
Just to clarify this - in order to avoid having to ditch one of your second rate Australian teams, you will set up a comp with two third rate teams from the Pacific and Asia, one team propped up by a billionaire for the time being, and one team in a state where no one gives even half a shit about rugby. :face_with_stuck-out_tongue:
Yes. But because we're second rate, the standard of comp will be much more even with the third rate teams
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@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
As predicted, by everyone but NZR it seems, AR have come out and said it’s 5 teams or 0, your choice NZ. NZR have totally fucked this by making it all public. Dicks
5 Australian and 5 NZ teams for 2021 is fine.
BUT
Removal of conference system. No guaranteed finals spots for Oz teams.
A promise to support a Pacific and an Asian franchise by 2023
Franchises to have common, basic standard for player welfare.
@sparky said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
As predicted, by everyone but NZR it seems, AR have come out and said it’s 5 teams or 0, your choice NZ. NZR have totally fucked this by making it all public. Dicks
5 Australian and 5 NZ teams for 2021 is fine.
BUT
Removal of conference system. No guaranteed finals spots for Oz teams.
A promise to support a Pacific and an Asian franchise by 2023
Franchises to have common, basic standard for player welfare.
Yeah I can live with that. No guaranteed finals is non negotiable for me.
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@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@mariner4life you think it will damage NZ? will it be much worse than previous comps?
I mean if both teams go it alone. Australia need our quality, (sorry Aussies, it's arrogant but it's true);
I'm not sure we do. I agree NZ sides are generally better (though not by as much as some here seem to think), but nobody I know has had any issues with the quality of rugby in SuperAU. Sure there's been a few stinkers, but you will get that in any competition.
There's a world where we have 5 Aussie teams, the Fiji Drua (already involved in NRC), and one more team from Asia (Sunwolves?) and it's a pretty tidy little comp. Yeah it may not be world beating and I still prefer TT but I think it probably ends up a more solid commercial proposition than what NZ could muster. Not by a huge amount, but a little bit.
Just to clarify this - in order to avoid having to ditch one of your second rate Australian teams, you will set up a comp with two third rate teams from the Pacific and Asia, one team propped up by a billionaire for the time being, and one team in a state where no one gives even half a shit about rugby. :face_with_stuck-out_tongue:
Yes. But because we're second rate, the standard of comp will be much more even with the third rate teams
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Yes. But because we're second rate, the standard of comp will be much more even with the third rate teams
Haha. So a shit comp overall, like the last few years. You will get what you want I suspect.
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@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Yes. But because we're second rate, the standard of comp will be much more even with the third rate teams
Haha. So a shit comp overall, like the last few years. You will get what you want I suspect.
@Snowy said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Yes. But because we're second rate, the standard of comp will be much more even with the third rate teams
Haha. So a shit comp overall, like the last few years. You will get what you want I suspect.
Jeez you're a fun bloke to have on the thread.
I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, but I actually think Super AU is a good example of what might work here. It is probably a notch below SuperNZ, but every side has been competitive and there are two fanbases pretty happy at the end of the weekend.
Coming in I was skeptical it would work, but the quality of the comp has turned me around.
Throw a few more teams in for a bit of variety, and you have seven competitive teams in a competition that may not be 'world leading' but provides enough for local fans to get behind. And you Kiwis can watch if you want, or just choose to watch something else with a smug superiority. Whatever suits.
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@Kiwiwomble more than happy to watch all of the NZ sides thrash the Aussie sides again if that's what they want. The best part is how all of the NZ rugby fans will be laughing when it's 4 kiwi sides making the top 4 because Aussie wanted 5 teams.
@Yeetyaah said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble more than happy to watch all of the NZ sides thrash the Aussie sides again if that's what they want. The best part is how all of the NZ rugby fans will be laughing when it's 4 kiwi sides making the top 4 because Aussie wanted 5 teams.
Seem to remember the Brumbies knocking off the Chiefs and the Rebels beating the Highlanders pre Covid. Also the Reds came within a bees dick of beating the Crusaders. We’ll never know how the rest of the season would have played out. I don’t think the difference is as great as what you think it is.
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@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
As predicted, by everyone but NZR it seems, AR have come out and said it’s 5 teams or 0, your choice NZ. NZR have totally fucked this by making it all public. Dicks
5 Australian and 5 NZ teams for 2021 is fine.
BUT
Removal of conference system. No guaranteed finals spots for Oz teams.
A promise to support a Pacific and an Asian franchise by 2023
Franchises to have common, basic standard for player welfare.
@sparky said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
As predicted, by everyone but NZR it seems, AR have come out and said it’s 5 teams or 0, your choice NZ. NZR have totally fucked this by making it all public. Dicks
5 Australian and 5 NZ teams for 2021 is fine.
BUT
Removal of conference system. No guaranteed finals spots for Oz teams.
A promise to support a Pacific and an Asian franchise by 2023
Franchises to have common, basic standard for player welfare.
automatic promotion/relegation
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@Snowy said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Yes. But because we're second rate, the standard of comp will be much more even with the third rate teams
Haha. So a shit comp overall, like the last few years. You will get what you want I suspect.
Jeez you're a fun bloke to have on the thread.
I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, but I actually think Super AU is a good example of what might work here. It is probably a notch below SuperNZ, but every side has been competitive and there are two fanbases pretty happy at the end of the weekend.
Coming in I was skeptical it would work, but the quality of the comp has turned me around.
Throw a few more teams in for a bit of variety, and you have seven competitive teams in a competition that may not be 'world leading' but provides enough for local fans to get behind. And you Kiwis can watch if you want, or just choose to watch something else with a smug superiority. Whatever suits.
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Jeez you're a fun bloke to have on the thread.
Right back at ya. Play the ball - I could add something to that...
I just want a decent competition and I don't believe it has been with the conferences and guaranteed finals spots.
Solutions? Probably not more weak teams.
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@Yeetyaah said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble more than happy to watch all of the NZ sides thrash the Aussie sides again if that's what they want. The best part is how all of the NZ rugby fans will be laughing when it's 4 kiwi sides making the top 4 because Aussie wanted 5 teams.
Seem to remember the Brumbies knocking off the Chiefs and the Rebels beating the Highlanders pre Covid. Also the Reds came within a bees dick of beating the Crusaders. We’ll never know how the rest of the season would have played out. I don’t think the difference is as great as what you think it is.
@yourmatenate said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Seem to remember the Brumbies knocking off the Chiefs and the Rebels beating the Highlanders pre Covid. Also the Reds came within a bees dick of beating the Crusaders. We’ll never know how the rest of the season would have played out. I don’t think the difference is as great as what you think it is.
We all know that OZ can put out some good teams and all of them can have a good day. History would suggest that the player depth isn't there for 5, or even 4. Injuries in a long season hurt too.
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@Yeetyaah said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Kiwiwomble more than happy to watch all of the NZ sides thrash the Aussie sides again if that's what they want. The best part is how all of the NZ rugby fans will be laughing when it's 4 kiwi sides making the top 4 because Aussie wanted 5 teams.
Seem to remember the Brumbies knocking off the Chiefs and the Rebels beating the Highlanders pre Covid. Also the Reds came within a bees dick of beating the Crusaders. We’ll never know how the rest of the season would have played out. I don’t think the difference is as great as what you think it is.
@yourmatenate I hope you're right, i think most people would love a pretty even comp
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Maybe to help bolster the standard we could introduce a rule that All Blacks can be selected from this comp. That way players could be based in NZ, Australia or eventually Japan.
Would be a way to develop youth players for NZ and plug the depth gap in Aussie. Also a way for players to make money in Japan and not be lost of the All Blacks.
Would have to stop poaching of young talent, but might be a solution?
Tear it apart below
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@akan004 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
https://twitter.com/paulcullystuff/status/1292694846491115520?s=20
i dont mind the idea except the travel needed for such a short comp, if we're talking everyone plays each other once it means travelling to SA for one game
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@nzzp said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
What rivers of gold that would be more than if we “owned” the comp?
Broadcasting rights, by way of comparison, where they have 5 times our population and 20% higher GDP per person.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=AU-NZThere is just no way to compete financially. Rugby is 3rd (well, probably 4th overall if you consdier cricket), so why aren't we helping them grow their game and the market?
ARU TV Rights have gone from
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worth around A$25m per year (2011 to 2015)
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A$57m per year (2015-2019)
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A$35m per year was offered in 2019 for renewal (rejected)
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A$20m is what deal is now, after letting negotiations run , falling out with Fox, and covid happened.
NZRU signed in 2019 a NZ$500m (NZ$100m per year deal) in 2019.
Let me put this in table format:
So, next year. In theory.
NZRU will be getting a $20m per year USD pay rise.
ARU will be getting a $28m per year USD pay cut.We should add 5 more teams , from an ARU pot of 14.4m USD?
or add 3 more NZ teams (or 4 or 5 more) from an increased NZRU pot of $20m USD (total 66m USD) ? In an era of deflating rugby wages?I'm not trying to rub it in. I want ARU to do well, and perfect storm has hit them at same as their own incompetence. If run well and free of competing agendas, they are obviously worth more than that. But adding 5 Australian teams is not adding 5 well funded teams.
For a dose of realism - the NZRU and Sky's deal may get re-negotiated down if a new reality of decreased advertising revenue etc.
I have my biases. I want an NZ professional domestic comp.
I want to tap into the Australian and Japanese market by having an Asian-Pacific Champions League playoffs. As there is $ potential in those markets.
What we do know, is there is apparently no current desire by Australians to see 80% of their teams beaten each week they come up against an out-of-country opponent. Let them have a domestic comp. Wish it well, as we need to tap into their market for the champions league. Asia-Pacific Super Rugby.
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@akan004 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
https://twitter.com/paulcullystuff/status/1292694846491115520?s=20
That's what I want.
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@akan004 said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
https://twitter.com/paulcullystuff/status/1292694846491115520?s=20
That's what I want.
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@nzzp said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Crucial said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
What rivers of gold that would be more than if we “owned” the comp?
Broadcasting rights, by way of comparison, where they have 5 times our population and 20% higher GDP per person.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=AU-NZThere is just no way to compete financially. Rugby is 3rd (well, probably 4th overall if you consdier cricket), so why aren't we helping them grow their game and the market?
ARU TV Rights have gone from
-
worth around A$25m per year (2011 to 2015)
-
A$57m per year (2015-2019)
-
A$35m per year was offered in 2019 for renewal (rejected)
-
A$20m is what deal is now, after letting negotiations run , falling out with Fox, and covid happened.
NZRU signed in 2019 a NZ$500m (NZ$100m per year deal) in 2019.
Let me put this in table format:
So, next year. In theory.
NZRU will be getting a $20m per year USD pay rise.
ARU will be getting a $28m per year USD pay cut.We should add 5 more teams , from an ARU pot of 14.4m USD?
or add 3 more NZ teams (or 4 or 5 more) from an increased NZRU pot of $20m USD (total 66m USD) ? In an era of deflating rugby wages?I'm not trying to rub it in. I want ARU to do well, and perfect storm has hit them at same as their own incompetence. If run well and free of competing agendas, they are obviously worth more than that. But adding 5 Australian teams is not adding 5 well funded teams.
For a dose of realism - the NZRU and Sky's deal may get re-negotiated down if a new reality of decreased advertising revenue etc.
I have my biases. I want an NZ professional domestic comp.
I want to tap into the Australian and Japanese market by having an Asian-Pacific Champions League playoffs. As there is $ potential in those markets.
What we do know, is there is apparently no current desire by Australians to see 80% of their teams beaten each week they come up against an out-of-country opponent. Let them have a domestic comp. Wish it well, as we need to tap into their market for the champions league. Asia-Pacific Super Rugby.
@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
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@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
Same applies to NZ.
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@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
Not sure I'm following. I am in no way suggesting either nation continue with a 5 team competition.
Free from competition with 5 NZ franchises. ARU can weaken (broaden) their 5 teams into whatever format fits their needs. 8, 10, 6 ... whatever. They can do whatever they want with Giteau rule, loosen it, tighten it etc. To work out a sustainable domestic comp plus strong Wallabies balance.
If they find their top 2 teams are poor when it comes to 'Super 8' as tweeted above. At least its only a month or so. Not an entire regular season ruined.
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@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
Same applies to NZ.
@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Rapido You can understand the predicament RA finds themselves in; they need a product to sell. And a 10 week round robin isn't exactly inspiring.
Same applies to NZ.
true, you do wonder how these two organisations can come to such different opinions on what will work
