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booboo

What's the daying about getting the democracy you deserve. 
Participate or put up with it. 
I'm not voting as i cant having been out of the country for so long Im not on the roll. 
If i could ... 
Neps - interssting comment about using Red Peak's inclusion as an examole of the process being flawed as this only happened because people anti the perceived instigator wanted to compromise the process. It should never have been included.

Rancid Schnitzel

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="560976" data-time="1456459952">
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Might be a dumb question but is the winning flag decided simply by which one got the highest votes or is there a threshold that must first be reached - i.e. like a reserve price in an auction. 
 
I mean is there a minimum number for voter turn out?
 
A silly example would be if only 10000 people voted would the decision be binding.
 
Rancid's case where he won't vote (neither will I) made me think that you could wake up with a new flag yet only 10% of NZ decided this
 
I'm guessing the rules of a referendum dictate that there's no minimum threshold for turn out
 
 
Edit: sorry Ranc, I misread your post and left off the "for a change"
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All good. I won't be voting either (:
 
That is a very good question btw. Is a minimum number required to make the referendum valid?
 
A flawed process would have been if only Red Peak type people had been chosen to design and select the alternative flags. Now that would have been ridiculously undemocratic and would fly in the face of what most NZers actually wanted in a new flag. I don't even want to know what 4 designs they would have come up with.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="560969" data-time="1456457617">
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I'm not following you here, the process was flawed because red peak was chosen after a social media campaign? 
Other people have said the process was flawed but like you they haven't elaboated as to why. 
red herring 

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I've deleted the babble so as not to clog up the page. ;)
 
You don't think adding a flag after the four adds a flaw to the process? If you're going to add Red Peak why not Silver Fern, Laser Kiwi, the 39 other Lockwood ferns? Why even have an 'expert' group come in and whittle down the list? Should have just put them all up to vote.
 
You don't think me explaining that adding Red Peak is an aspect of why I think it was flawed is elaborating? We have different definitions of elaborating I guess.
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="560981" data-time="1456461268">
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Neps - interssting comment about using Red Peak's inclusion as an examole of the process being flawed as this only happened because people anti the perceived instigator wanted to compromise the process. It should never have been included.
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Of course it shouldn't have been included, just because some of the current whiners wanted it, it doesn't mean that it's not an example of a flawed in the process.

taniwharugby

pretty sure it is just first past the post! 
 
So I expect some of the real numpty lefthards who think the flag decision is already made will not bother voting, so they best hope it isnt close...

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="560985" data-time="1456461893">I've deleted the babble so as not to clog up the page. ;) 
 
You don't think adding a flag after the four adds a flaw to the process? If you're going to add Red Peak why not Silver Fern, Laser Kiwi, the 39 other Lockwood ferns? Why even have an 'expert' group come in and whittle down the list? Should have just put them all up to vote. 
 
You don't think me explaining that adding Red Peak is an aspect of why I think it was flawed is elaborating? We have different definitions of elaborating I guess. 
 
 
Of course it shouldn't have been included, just because some of the current whiners wanted it, it doesn't mean that it's not an example of a flawed in the process.</blockquote>
 
So you're cool with the original process but not including red peak ? Agree , they should have been told to fuck off. 
I was thinking you were on the side of the no vexilogists on the commitee people. Because I mean the obvious person to go to for design advice is a bearded middle aged virgin somewhere on the spectrum isn't it?

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="560989" data-time="1456462486">
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So you're cool with the original process but not including red peak ? Agree , they should have been told to fuck off. 
I was thinking you were on the side of the no vexilogists on the commitee people. Because I mean the obvious person to go to for design advice is a bearded middle aged virgin somewhere on the spectrum isn't it?
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I'm not cool that the dingbats didn't choose the silver fern (but that's just a personal opinion) but I don't care about vexiologists, but then again I hadn't heard the word before someone posted it in this thread. I don't think it was a perfect process before they added Red Peak but Red Peak ruined it completely because it wasn't the process.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="560995" data-time="1456464152">
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I'm not cool that the dingbats didn't choose the silver fern (but that's just a personal opinion) but I don't care about vexiologists, but then again I hadn't heard the word before someone posted it in this thread. I don't think it was a perfect process before they added Red Peak but Red Peak ruined it completely because it wasn't the process.
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I might be wrong, but I think you have then been educated by Winger as I think he was the first to use it in the thread...

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="560998" data-time="1456464521">
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I might be wrong, but I think you have then been educated by Winger as I think he was the first to use it in the thread...
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Yep and they chose this dogs breakfast as their own flag
 
<img src="http://www.flagsaustralia.com.au/images/ICV26 flag - 600.jpg" alt="ICV26%20flag%20-%20600.jpg">

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="560995" data-time="1456464152">
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I'm not cool that the dingbats didn't choose the silver fern (but that's just a personal opinion) but I don't care about vexiologists, but then again I hadn't heard the word before someone posted it in this thread. I don't think it was a perfect process before they added Red Peak but Red Peak ruined it completely because it wasn't the process.
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I'm in two minds about the silverfern, people will carry on waving it at sporting events no matter which way the vote goes. Red peak is a perfect example of why we should ignore twitter and facebook and also Winger.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="560995" data-time="1456464152">
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I'm not cool that the dingbats didn't choose the silver fern (but that's just a personal opinion) but I don't care about vexiologists, but then again I hadn't heard the word before someone posted it in this thread. I don't think it was a perfect process before they added Red Peak but Red Peak ruined it completely because it wasn't the process.
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Wow... so a process has to be perfect? Pretty high bar.
But like all left wingers who dont like the process, you seem rather vague of any serious issues with it.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="560857" data-time="1456440554">
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- it's eerily similar to the Australian republic vote in 1999 where the model put up was so unpalatable to the general public that it was rejected despite a clear majority of the population favouring a move to a republic.
 
 
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Actually its nothing at all like the republican referendum in 1999.
 
Howard didn't want change so he gave them the unpalatable choice of the status quo or a head of state they didn't get to choose.
 
Key is pro change and we were given four options to choose from and then vote on the final two.

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="560955" data-time="1456456037">
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Yeah, the process was higgilty piggilty and still would have been if the right one (we all know what it is ;)) was added a la Red Peak - it would still be flawed.
 
I like the new option better than the old option.
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The process wasn't really flawed. The big problem was the process cost $26 million dollars apparently, which all Key-haters decided was enough of a reason to immediately veto any interest in what was trying to be achieved & stand on some sort of moral soap box to shout their infantile rantings.
 
The only flaw in the process, was the addition of red-peak. As it showed the government as being a bit weak and influenced by the leftard community.
 
You can argue with that all you want, but that was 100% proved correct when red peak received less than 20% of the votes of either of the lockwood, showing that those who shout loudest, don't necessarily represent the people.
 
The cost of this process hasn't been a drop in the ocean of the NZ budget. The 3 fields which everybody seems to think this should have gone in for are Social Welfare, Healthcare & Education (oh won't somebody think of the children) - the smallest of those 3 budget is 13.5billion. This equates to 37 million a day. Thus, putting an extra 26 million in, wouldn't even cover an extra day ... (to be fair, 2016 is a leap year, so perhaps they need it ). So this argument is frankly, fuckin stupid. Yeah I get that the people of Christchurch perhaps could have done with it, but the problem there doesn't seem to be funding, it seems to be more availability of resources. 26 million more doesn't help, if you already have a good wad of cash, but are struggling to find the resources (people, mainly) to spend it on.
 
To those that argue that we shouldn't change because of respect to elders, past generations, war heroes ... I don't have a problem with (although I think your view is based perhaps more on emotion than fact).
To those that simply prefer the old flag ... no problems
To those that are campaiging to keep the old flag because of any of the above ... all power to you. Thats what democracy is about.
 
But to the rest of you, those who are against it because of bullshit, small minded, pathetic, mind-numbingly irritating, political agendas (to be fair, alot of you are probably even too dumb to realise this is what you have), well I'm now voting because of you. And I sure as fuck ain't voting to keep the same flag.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="561021" data-time="1456468888">
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The process wasn't really flawed. The big problem was the process cost $26 million dollars apparently, which all Key-haters decided was enough of a reason to immediately veto any interest in what was trying to be achieved & stand on some sort of moral soap box to shout their infantile rantings.
 
The only flaw in the process, was the addition of red-peak. As it showed the government as being a bit weak and influenced by the leftard community.
 
You can argue with that all you want, but that was 100% proved correct when red peak received less than 20% of the votes of either of the lockwood, showing that those who shout loudest, don't necessarily represent the people.
 
The cost of this process hasn't been a drop in the ocean of the NZ budget. The 3 fields which everybody seems to think this should have gone in for are Social Welfare, Healthcare & Education (oh won't somebody think of the children) - the smallest of those 3 budget is 13.5billion. This equates to 37 million a day. Thus, putting an extra 26 million in, wouldn't even cover an extra day ... (to be fair, 2016 is a leap year, so perhaps they need it ). So this argument is frankly, fuckin stupid. Yeah I get that the people of Christchurch perhaps could have done with it, but the problem there doesn't seem to be funding, it seems to be more availability of resources. 26 million more doesn't help, if you already have a good wad of cash, but are struggling to find the resources (people, mainly) to spend it on.
 
To those that argue that we shouldn't change because of respect to elders, past generations, war heroes ... I don't have a problem with (although I think your view is based perhaps more on emotion than fact).
To those that simply prefer the old flag ... no problems
To those that are campaiging to keep the old flag because of any of the above ... all power to you. Thats what democracy is about.
 
But to the rest of you, those who are against it because of bullshit, small minded, pathetic, mind-numbingly irritating, political agendas (to be fair, alot of you are probably even too dumb to realise this is what you have), well I'm now voting because of you. And I sure as fuck ain't voting to keep the same flag.
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<img src="https://49.media.tumblr.com/f73aa247b922d7d6a2bcdf3ef8429535/tumblr_n7dnfevl8g1rr883co1_500.gif" alt="tumblr_n7dnfevl8g1rr883co1_500.gif">

Baron Silas Greenback

I think alot of people are going to look back and regret being such petty tools about this. Those that have decided to vote based on a dislike of Key are just punishing themselves.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="560989" data-time="1456462486">
So you're cool with the original process but not including red peak ? Agree , they should have been told to fuck off. 
I was thinking you were on the side of the no vexilogists on the commitee people. Because I mean the obvious person to go to for design advice is a bearded middle aged virgin somewhere on the spectrum isn't it?</blockquote>
 
Winger's got a beard?

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="561021" data-time="1456468888">
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The process wasn't really flawed. The big problem was the process cost $26 million dollars apparently, which all Key-haters decided was enough of a reason to immediately veto any interest in what was trying to be achieved & stand on some sort of moral soap box to shout their infantile rantings.
 
The only flaw in the process, was the addition of red-peak. As it showed the government as being a bit weak and influenced by the leftard community.
 
 
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Huh, the only flaw in the process was the flaw I highlighted but the process wasn't flawed???
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="561008" data-time="1456465310">
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Wow... so a process has to be perfect? Pretty high bar.
But like all left wingers who dont like the process, you seem rather vague of any serious issues with it.
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I know all you seem to come here is for shitfighting these days but I'll respond anyway - no I didn't say a process had to be perfect, I said it wasn't 'perfect'. The rest is all in your imagination.
 
Furthermore, I stated what my issue was - in a post directly responding to you - not vague in the least.
 
And further, furthermore for both you I want a flag change (as long as it's not Red Peak), I don't care that Key is pushing it through, and think that Labour should have backed it.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="561056" data-time="1456472137">
 
And further, furthermore for both you I want a flag change (as long as it's not Red Peak), I don't care that Key is pushing it through, and think that Labour should have backed it.</blockquote>
 
Labour have been hijacked by the alliance crowd and are disagreeing with national for the sale of it over pretty much everything, there's been decades of cross party accords over trade they just trashed with their stance over the TPPA . There was no way in hell they were ever going to get behind the flag change when the opportunity to give Key a bloody nose was there for the taking even if it was one of their own policies. 
It's sad and funny at the same time watching thrm tie themselves in knots trying find reasons why we have to keep the current flag , mind you a few months back they were posting a leaked list of Asian sounding house buyers names which they would have been disgusted by if Brash or Peters did the same thing .

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="561054" data-time="1456471683">Winger's got a beard?</blockquote>
 
That's how I picture him

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="560995" data-time="1456464152">
 
I'm not cool that the dingbats didn't choose the silver fern (but that's just a personal opinion) but I don't care about vexiologists, but then again I hadn't heard the word before someone posted it in this thread. I don't think it was a perfect process before they added Red Peak but Red Peak ruined it completely because it wasn't the process.</blockquote>
 
I take it you're not criticing the process with that statement ... seems to be an example of i don't like the outcome so the process us wrong. But I'm sure that's not the case eh Neps?

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="561056" data-time="1456472137">
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Huh, the only flaw in the process was the flaw I highlighted but the process wasn't flawed???
 
 
I know all you seem to come here is for shitfighting these days but I'll respond anyway - no I didn't say a process had to be perfect, I said it wasn't 'perfect'. The rest is all in your imagination.
 
Furthermore, I stated what my issue was - in a post directly responding to you - not vague in the least.
 
And further, furthermore for both you I want a flag change (as long as it's not Red Peak), I don't care that Key is pushing it through, and think that Labour should have backed it.
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you called the process higgeldy piggeldy - i apologise for confusing this with you meaning it was flawed.
 
The process wasn't flawed. It became flawed because the government bowed to the leftards.

The Silver Fern

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