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jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="561154" data-time="1456480622">
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<p>Now I'm just wondering who your favourite team is. :think:</p>
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<p>The black caps?</p>

jegga

taniwharugby

<p>but apparently there are no endorsements of the current flga...only John Keys propoganda machine</p>

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="561021" data-time="1456468888"><p>
To those that argue that we shouldn't change because of respect to elders, past generations, war heroes ... I don't have a problem with (although I think your view is based perhaps more on emotion than fact).<br></p></blockquote>
Great post Rage. Can I just add the thought that the logic behind "our soldiers fought for that flag" is flawed. (Given we're into flawed processes tonight.) Our soldiers did not fight for the flag. They fought for our country, our way of life and our right to make these sort of decisions.<br><br><br>
And having thought a bit about the Red Triangle being added to the referendum. I've changed my mind. Adding it WAS the RIGHT decision. It was an option that (appeared to) have generated some passion and interest. On that basis it deserved to be added. Obviously it's perceived popularity was wildly overestimated and gross overstated. But it did come 3rd. So on that basis I think it was good that it was added to the list.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JC" data-cid="560913" data-time="1456451062">
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<p>How would that have worked? If I had been asked "do you want to change the flag, yes/no" my immediate response would have been "why, what are you offering as an alternative?".</p>
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<p>Without giving people an alternative up front voting yes to a change isn't making a choice, it's just rejecting the status quo. You'd have to have a real ideological dislike for the current flag to do that. While I'm open to the idea of a new flag if the right alternative is put before me I don't feel strongly enough to simply reject the existing one out of hand.</p>
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<p>As far as I can see it had to be done this way round.</p>
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<p>An alternative question would have been "do you want to remove the Union Jack from the NZ flag" and you go from there. The reasons for changing the flag are not those simply on asthetic preference but the lack of distinctiveness and presence of the Union Jack (i.e. ties/subservience to the UK).</p>
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<p>Almost all of the best and most distinctive flags came out of political committee or a design contest - not a public vote or a two stage plebiscite.</p>
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<p>I understand what you are saying but now we are currently in a situation where it is essentially a beauty contest do you prefer the old flag to the blue/black Lockwood. We aren't getting to the heart of the matter which is "do you want to change the NZ flag". I want to change the NZ flag, but I think the Lockwood design is a mess - so I'm not sure what to vote there (likely will not)</p>
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<p>The the white/black fern option is one of the least aesthetically pleasing silver ferns I have seen in my life. I would happily vote for a decent looking silver fern option (amongst many others) - but the fact that was the best take on the classic silver fern we could turn up in this process (as well as the prescence of utter nonsense like Blackjack in the final 40) could turn up leads me to believe that the process was pretty flawed.</p>

taniwharugby

<p>well I dont agree with that, as others have said, if you ask someone if they want to change something, they want to know what they are to change too, if you dont give them the option it is far too easy to stay with the status quo, even if you want to change...not to mention all those already suspicious this is a done deal already, how much more suspicious would that section be if you had no choice to start with, and then there would be those opposed to change would fuel that conspiracy angle too.</p>
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<p>I think too many believe shite they read on social media than to be mature enough to make half a decision like that, they need to be babied through it.</p>

booboo

A couple if things:<br><br>

I would not be a fan of a straight silver fern. But those who support said silver fern seem to think it would gave gained universal acceptance. Not sure it would.<br><br>
Agree that the silver fern option on the final 4/5 was pretty ordinary.<br><br>
Those criticising the process seem to think it should have come up with a universally lived and admired option. Which would have been exactly aligned with their own personal expectations. Not sure what that option would be really. <br><br>
The claim that no designers were involved: they all had the opportunity to create and submit designs.<br><br>
The only drawback to the Lockwood is a lack of Maori symbolism. But I still like it.<br><br>
Aussies I've talked to like the Lockwood and think it's a foregone conclusion it will get in. Until i give them some background.<br><br>
Vote Lockwood.

jegga

Polling looks like the leftards and rsa might have their way.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561217" data-time="1456518599">
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<p>well I dont agree with that, as others have said, if you ask someone if they want to change something, they want to know what they are to change too, if you dont give them the option it is far too easy to stay with the status quo, even if you want to change...not to mention all those already suspicious this is a done deal already, how much more suspicious would that section be if you had no choice to start with, and then there would be those opposed to change would fuel that conspiracy angle too.</p>
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<p><strong>I think too many believe shite they read on social media than to be mature enough to make half a decision like that, they need to be babied through it.</strong></p>
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<p>That can be said for most democracies in the world. The flag debate is one example, this is another</p>
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<p><img src="http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/55918b77ecad04a3465a0a63/nbc-fires-donald-trump-after-he-calls-mexicans-rapists-and-drug-runners.jpg" alt="nbc-fires-donald-trump-after-he-calls-me"></p>

taniwharugby

<p>can only imagine the smug 'waste of money' and 'bye Donkey' type shit that will follow if the current flag remains...which while I am pro-change, wouldnt bother me greatly if not for all the smug bleating that will follow. </p>

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="561056" data-time="1456472137">
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<p><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">I know all you seem to come here is for shitfighting these days but I'll respond anyway - no I didn't say a process had to be perfect, I said it wasn't 'perfect'. The rest is all in your imagination.</span></p>
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<p>Dont tell me why I come on here nowdays you pompous jack ass.</p>
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<p>You are the one polluting this thread with one confused position after another, you are clearly just another anti Key whinger...but know that if you come out and actually say that is your reason for bitching about the process you will rightfully lampooned.</p>
<p>Of course I had to use my imagination to fill in some of the gaps of your position, because it is nearly all gaps, and as soon as we ask for clarification, you just create another meaningless whinge.. with just enough wriggle room so you can escape to your next whinge location.</p>
<p>The process was flawed.. then it was 'higgledy piggledy'... then it wasn't perfect. All the while you are just at your vacuous best in actually specifying any real issues with it....</p>
<p>When I said that a perfect process is a pretty high bar.... you just wriggle around and say that you didnt say it did.. which begs the question.... what exactly was the point in you saying it wasn't perfect? Actually never mind... people will know very well why you said it.</p>

Nepia

Hahaha - you're calling someone pompous, that's the equivalent of firing ballistic missiles in glass houses.<br><br>
Furthermore, you're making shit up, I've barely been on this thread aside from my recent comments and some early on.<br><br>
I told you exactly why it was flawed/higgeldy piggledy/not perfect (is it semantics week?). You're ignoring that for whatever reason you feel like.<br><br>
I haven't said one anti Key thing on this thread - that's in your mind -(speaking of not telling people what they honk jackass) I'm happy that he's pushed the flag change forward. <br><br>
You're the one letting your ideology dominate your interactions on this thread while you sling mud.

jegga

<p>Just had a read of the flag thread on planet rugby, take my advice and don't . Its pretty much full of the same sort of crap as the facebook posts that have been popping up here.</p>
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<p>Anyone childish enough to call Key Jong Kee deserves the same amount of respect as the loons who used to call Clark Hulun Klark, ie none at all. </p>

Mokey

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Found this on Facebook. Pretty much sums it up for me. (In another post, he notes the NZ flag was designed in 1869, adopted in 1902. The Aussie flag was chosen from competition entries in 1901, modified by King Edward in 1903 and adopted 1908. SO WHO COPIED WHO???) :mail: :think:

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<span><span><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.facebook.com/MAORIMADE/?fref=nf'>Steve the Maori</a></span></span>

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<div><span><span><a class="" href="https://www.facebook.com/MAORIMADE/photos/a.115767788505937.25594.108700732545976/970416646374376/?type=3"><span>February 25 at 10:04am</span></a><span> Â· </span><a class="" href="https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tauranga-New-Zealand/115055298507659">Tauranga, New Zealand</a></span></span><span> Â· </span></div>
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<p>Let's try this.</p>
<p>Remove thinking about your hate of the National Party and the Prime Minister.<br>
Take note that the money has already been spent ($26,000,000)</p>
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<p>Now read everything below and ask yourself if it's a good idea?</p>
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taniwharugby

<p>a couple of the points in that graphic are pointless and probably detract from it IMO, but the overall picture is good...but it is clear some people cant get past thier hatred and lack of knowledge.</p>
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<p>Elsewhere in this thread I pointed out we had a referendum up here for a Maori Art Centre, styled on Austrian <span style="font-size:14px;"><span style="color:rgb(69,50,5);font-family:'Source Sans Pro', Arial, sans-serif;">Friedensreich Hundertwasser design </span></span>who made Northland his home and he designed a building for Whangarei. Again, this was all done through a democratic process (although the council made the mistake of trying to do a 1000 person phone survey to guage opinion, which was about 70-30 against) the referendum was based on 1 of 3 choices - the Hundertwasser, a Maritime Museum or demolish the building they wish to use and go from there - and yet still people moan it was rigged and the council just doing what they want, and they will never visit the centre blah blah blah, lots of hate for those who support it. </p>
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<p>Even when the Govt. recently announced they would ve giving 4mill towards it people bitching and moaning that this should be spent on roads, hospitals, kids etc...lacking in knowledge that if this grant didnt come here, it woulda gone to another similar project elsewhere in NZ, they simply didnt understand that money was never going to be used for a 'nicer' project.</p>

jegga

I'm torn here, Lizzy Marvelly is hot . However she has a herald column , she's a shitlebrity telling us we should ignore shitlebrity/celebrity's opinions on the flag<br>
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11596240&ref=NZH_Tw'>http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11596240&ref=NZH_Tw</a><br><br>
She is hot though.

taniwharugby

<p>Good old Winny, he and Trump should hang out...some of the comments on FB show there are plenty of rednecks in NZ too.</p>
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<p>[attachment=1987:Capture.JPG]</p>
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<p>Guess it just goes to show how far out of touch with things Winny is and how he clearly doesnt know how it all works in NZ! </p>
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<p>Funny how he didnt bring this issue out before the 1st vote, but now after people got to vote on which flag he wants to take away thier option of voting in this one, despite being allowed to vote in the General Election.</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/peters-immigrants-shouldnt-vote-in-flag-referendum-2016022812#axzz41Js8OrV2'>http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/peters-immigrants-shouldnt-vote-in-flag-referendum-2016022812#axzz41Js8OrV2</a></p>
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<p style="font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;">Immigrants should get to have their say when it comes to choosing New Zealand's flag in the upcoming referendum, according to the Change the NZ Flag chairman.</p>
<p style="font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;"><strong>Immigrants with New Zealand residency are presently allowed to vote in the referendum, but NZ First leader Winston Peters has argued that "outsiders" such as immigrants shouldn't be heard.</strong></p>
<p style="font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;">"Why should thousands of immigrants who have come here in recent years be involved in making a decision that goes, in the words of the flag committee, to the very heart of who we are and what we are as a nation?" he said.</p>
<p style="font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;">"You will not find any other country that would allow outsiders to make a decision about their national identity and it certainly should not happen here."</p>
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<p style="font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;">But Change the NZ Flag chairman Lewis Holden rebuked the NZ First leader and said the alternate fern and stars flag will unite all New Zealanders under a new, fresh banner.</p>
<p style="font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;">"I had hoped Mr Peters would have grown tired of playing the immigrant card," he said today.</p>
<p style="font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;"><strong>"Some people who have residency may have lived in New Zealand for very long periods of time and have legitimate reasons to keep the passport of another country."</strong></p>
<p style="font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;"><strong>The second flag referendum opens on March 3.</strong></p>
<p style="font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:inherit;font-size:1em;">NZN</p>
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<p><span style="margin:0px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0);">Read more: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/peters-immigrants-shouldnt-vote-in-flag-referendum-2016022812#ixzz41QNGkkbJ'>http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/peters-immigrants-shouldnt-vote-in-flag-referendum-2016022812#ixzz41QNGkkbJ</a></span></p>

jegga

I think breath testing Winston before and interview is long overdue

rotated

<p>He has a point, there are likely several in this thread who are ineligible to vote by virtue of being out of NZ for 3 years despite being invested in NZ from birth while many recent non-citizens holding PR are eligible.</p>
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<p>Are there any other western countries that would extend voting rights to PR?</p>

taniwharugby

<p>My wife has PR, lived in NZ for 12 years, pays tax, has 2 Kiwi kids, is allowed to vote in the General Election and gets called up to Jury service, why shouldnt she have the right to vote for this?</p>
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<p>We are not talking about other countries, we are talking about NZ, not to mention he didnt bring this issue up prior to the first part of the referendum, he is grandstanding and worried that these 'immigrants;' who have no right to vote, might vote differently to what he wants, not to mention stirring up a bit of racism.</p>

The Silver Fern

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