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Mokey

Oh fuck off, Winston. They are permanent residents who have fulfilled all their obligations and been granted the privilege to make their longterm home here, not randoms being polled in the Arrivals lounge at Auckland International Airport.

taniwharugby

I guess you could draw a line in the sand and say you need to be a PR for 2 or 3 years to qualify to vote in the GE as well, although TBF I dont think it'd make much difference.
 
But then that wouldnt suit Whiney's agenda.

Tim

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="561491" data-time="1456630480">He has a point, there are likely several in this thread who are ineligible to vote by virtue of being out of NZ for 3 years despite being invested in NZ from birth while many recent non-citizens holding PR are eligible. 
 
Are there any other western countries that would extend voting rights to PR?</blockquote>
 
Commenwealth citizens who are legally resident in the UK can vote in their general election.

No Quarter

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="561488" data-time="1456628931">I think breath testing Winston before and interview is long overdue</blockquote>
My father worked with him many years ago and said he was pretty much always drunk.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="561498" data-time="1456639845">My father worked with him many years ago and said he was pretty much always drunk.</blockquote>
 
I posted a couple of years back when I was in a restaurant and he staggered in steaming drunk and made a cock of himself . Apparently most restaurants near the beehive and in particular the green parrot have stories of his drunken behaviour and I've heard a few of staff spitting in his food and worse.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="561498" data-time="1456639845">
<div>
My father worked with him many years ago and said he was pretty much always drunk.
</div>
</blockquote>
My cousin used to work at Bellamy's in the Parliament buildings, said Win was his best tipper. Doesn't stop him being a c*nt though

Godder

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote?wprov=sfla1'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote?wprov=sfla1</a> 
NZ certainly isn't alone in allowing non-citizens to vote.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Godder" data-cid="561533" data-time="1456687179">
<div>
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote?wprov=sfla1'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote?wprov=sfla1</a> 
NZ certainly isn't alone in allowing non-citizens to vote.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Outside of the Commonwealth and EU exceptions, which granted are vast, I can't see an example of a country similar to NZ on that list.

dogmeat

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="559934" data-time="1456094952">
<div>
Relevant and another example of why I consider the State shouldn't fund broadcasters. <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2016/02/why-are-radionz-and-john-campbell-allowing-death-threats-against-the-prime-minister/'>http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2016/02/why-are-radionz-and-john-campbell-allowing-death-threats-against-the-prime-minister/</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Couldn't disagree more. Campbell is a self-aggrandizing knob-jockey and not a patch on his predecessor, Mary Wilson, but RNZ is the only mainstream media provider in NZ that consistently gives more than a soundbite to an issue. Without govt funding that wavelength would simply be another classic hits format.
 
Slater is also a self-aggrandizing knob-jockey
 
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="560752" data-time="1456380608">
<div>
Vote away 
Was in Auckland yesterday, saw both flags hanging in the light breeze on the Harbour Bridge, reckon the new one looks better in real life.
 
This is a private poll, so fear not the extreme fors/againsts in voting! 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Yup. I was always in favour of doing away with the current flag for the union jack/too close to Oz reasons, but I did find the Lockwood designs uninspired. Still going to vote for change though.
 
My biggest issue is the design of the fern which I think is very poor. I think we could have done much better. I have a bloody decent (original) design tattooed on my shoulder that I'll gift to the nation for a lifetime pass to every home AB game :whistle:
 
The two flags on the bridge have convinced me that not just philosophically but aesthetically I prefer the new. Strangey though I liked it best when it was the "wrong" blue.
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="560857" data-time="1456440554">
<div>
 
I would have inverted the process, vote do you want to change yes/no. If that got up then do your informal yet extensive market research to find out what components and colours we most favour in a flag, have a small but accountable committee come up with a handful of options behind close doors and the have the govt of the day pick whichever they desire (facing the political consequences if they pick a travesty).
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I think it was TR pointed out you need to know what the change is, in order to vote for it. This is the official line on the 2 phase process and their order.
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="561071" data-time="1456473242">
<div>
That's how I picture him [Winger with a beard]
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I picture him as too young to shave

Godder

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="561601" data-time="1456717216">
Outside of the Commonwealth and EU exceptions, which granted are vast, I can't see an example of a country similar to NZ on that list.</blockquote>
 
Some South American countries, Hong Kong, Israel, Jersey.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="561613" data-time="1456722876">
<div>I think it was TR pointed out you need to know what the change is, in order to vote for it. This is the official line on the 2 phase process and their order. 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Not necessarily. There are many referendums where large parts of what of being voted on is unknown - see the Scottish, Quebec and now UK separation votes. Key questions of currency, visa rights and assets are a giant question mark. A vote to remove the Union Jack (and subsequent second vote to replace it) has similar ambiguities but is also clear enough in direction.
 
Ideal scenario would be that this change was just made by the government, however Key seems hellbent on not spending any political capital and accepting the political rammifications to get his outcome. God Defend NZ was adopted like this, Canada and RSA changed their flags like this. Just do it and live with the political consequences.
 
A compromise solution would have been putting the current NZ flag directly against the four other flags in a one off ranked ballot vote. If Australia had adopted that approach they would be celebrating their 15th year as a republic today.

Billy Tell

So, anyone actually living in NZ, is referendum 2 a foregone conclusion: sticking with the Union Jack in the upper left corner??

jegga

Pretty much . There's another election next year which won't go so well for the leftards though.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="561663" data-time="1456768614">
<div>
So, anyone actually living in NZ, is referendum 2 a foregone conclusion: sticking with the Union Jack in the upper left corner??
</div>
</blockquote>
 
TBH, who knows...seems a lot of vocal support for the status quo, but also seems to be a fair amount who are keen for a change, and like Major Rage earlier, disgusted in the behavior of some have had their minds swayed...
 
I think the status quo will remain, but I don't think it is gonna be as much a clear majority as most are suggesting.

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561671" data-time="1456774012">
<div>
TBH, who knows...seems a lot of vocal support for the status quo, but also seems to be a fair amount who are keen for a change, and like Major Rage earlier, disgusted in the behavior of some have had their minds swayed...
 
I think the status quo will remain, but I don't think it is gonna be as much a clear majority as most are suggesting.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
I tend to agree. I think there is a large silent bloc that aren't making their desire for change well known because of the atmosphere of being shouted down.
I think the current flag will stay because of the many muddied arguments (people voting against Key, people voting against the process, people not being 100% happy with the change option, people who vote according to polls because they don't want to be on the losing side).
But I also think it will be closer than the polls indicate.

Billy Tell

One thing that might help is that (surprisingly imo), one of the biggest keep the flag demographics is young people. They are also the least likely take the time to vote.

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="561613" data-time="1456722876">
<div>
Couldn't disagree more. Campbell is a self-aggrandizing knob-jockey and not a patch on his predecessor, Mary Wilson, 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
They are as bad as each other IMO. Mary Wilson harangues just about anyone she interviews, digging for dirt where it doesn't exist and harping on about minor points in order to claim a victory. I used to switch off the moment she started in on someone.
 
I think I have mentioned an example before where some poor bloke given the task of being the point person to the media in a search and rescue was grilled by her over and over about a minor point as if he deliberately lost the people in the first place.

taniwharugby

plus there is all the mis-information about how it impacts us in the Commonwealth and a raft of other things...one thing that has surprised me is how much it appears Maori appear to be opposed, given what the existing flag represents, although I guess this again is down to the mis-information on what the changing of the flag and the TPPA does to Maori claims against the crown.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561677" data-time="1456775202">
plus there is all the mis-information about how it impacts us in the Commonwealth and a raft of other things...one thing that has surprised me is how much it appears Maori appear to be opposed, given what the existing flag represents, although I guess this again is down to the mis-information on what the changing of the flag and the TPPA does to Maori claims against the crown.</blockquote>
 
And gaping a holes like Hone straight out lying, he claimed the TPPA had no provisions for Maori yet ours was the only one with provisions for indigenous people negotiated into it. I shudder to think what he and his ilk have said about the flag.

Gary

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561492" data-time="1456630788">
<div>
My wife has PR, lived in NZ for 12 years, pays tax, has 2 Kiwi kids, is allowed to vote in the General Election and gets called up to Jury service, why shouldnt she have the right to vote for this?
 
We are not talking about other countries, we are talking about NZ, not to mention he didnt bring this issue up prior to the first part of the referendum, he is grandstanding and worried that these 'immigrants;' who have no right to vote, might vote differently to what he wants, not to mention stirring up a bit of racism.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Well in Canada unless you are a citizen you can't vote for anything Federal, Provincial, Town Council, School Board ~ and I'm pretty sure in my house I don't even get a vote on what we watch on TV.
.
I'm a landed immigrant but won't become a Canadian because I don't see myself as a Canadian (I'm probably not polite enough) ~ I live here because I didn't read the fine print on the marriage certificate. The thing that bothers me the most about the non vote is you can be in prison for life for raping, killing etc and you get to vote.

The Silver Fern

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