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taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="561921" data-time="1456898771">
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If the designer's had a brief, it could work. But the flag design guidelines were extremely vague, hence laser Kiwi etc. If you think about it, the most important thing if you're a designer (in the broad sense) is that the design will appeal to more than 50% of those who vote, so that the flag changes. Now, the vast majority of designers will want to be original IMO, meaning symbols such as the fern or the southern cross won't be included in their designs, because well if you've got a degree in design you're hardly going to choose a fern for your original design, are you. Hence all these esoteric designs like in my link, that might have "design/art" appeal, but will never ever have popular appeal. If you put those 40 designs forward, there will be small pockets of the population who really like a particular flag, but not a groundswell. The closet we probably got to a "design" flag was Red Peak...and it managed 3rd in the first round, and I extremely doubt would have taken out the current flag had it made it to the 2nd round.
 
There will absolutely never be a new flag that will please everyone. It's clear the committee went around NZ, and a large number of Joe Average Kiwis said the fern and the southern cross were important to them...hence why they ended up on the chosen flag...and why that flag has a small chance of replacing the current flag.
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if they had too much of a breif, then that would help fuel the conspiracy theories, so it had to be from 'scratch'
 
I think the flag we have chosen, ticks the boxes, but it is the silverfern design itself that has me hesitant.

Paekakboyz

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="561921" data-time="1456898771">
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If the designer's had a brief, it could work. But the flag design guidelines were extremely vague, hence laser Kiwi etc. If you think about it, the most important thing if you're a designer (in the broad sense) is that the design will appeal to more than 50% of those who vote, so that the flag changes. Now, the vast majority of designers will want to be original IMO, meaning symbols such as the fern or the southern cross won't be included in their designs, because well if you've got a degree in design you're hardly going to choose a fern for your original design, are you. Hence all these esoteric designs like in my link, that might have "design/art" appeal, but will never ever have popular appeal. If you put those 40 designs forward, there will be small pockets of the population who really like a particular flag, but not a groundswell. The closet we probably got to a "design" flag was Red Peak...and it managed 3rd in the first round, and I extremely doubt would have taken out the current flag had it made it to the 2nd round.
 
There will absolutely never be a new flag that will please everyone. It's clear the committee went around NZ, and a large number of Joe Average Kiwis said the fern and the southern cross were important to them...hence why they ended up on the chosen flag...and why that flag has a small chance of replacing the current flag.
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Not 100% sure but think we are talking about slightly different things here BT? As in a brief for designers actually creating options versus what a designer on the panel could have contributed to the selection process. Personal experience with projects that had online and print design elements (I'm not a designer btw) were more successful when a designer was involved to guide the process compared to when the IT/Editor/subject matter experts folk went it alone. 
 
I do agree with you and taniwharugby that a tighter design brief would have unleashed the apocalypse though. JK slips favoured flag design under wrong hotel room door by accident!!!

Billy Tell

I'd have no problem with a designer consulting on or refining some of the chosen designs. The Lockwood fern could be better the blue could be a tad darker etc IMO. 
Just don't think a designer flag from scratch would ever have enough popular appeal.

taniwharugby

wasnt the whole point to have people (designers, vexologists, spinners, hookers, KFC workers, fishermen, kids etc) from all walks of life make submissions anyway? 
 
I am still not convinced having a designer sitting on the panel to judge the submissions would have helped.

No Quarter

The guy that designed the AB fern offered to redesign the Lockwood fern. I wish he was taken up on that offer.

Rancid Schnitzel

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="561937" data-time="1456902803">
The guy that designed the AB fern offered to redesign the Lockwood fern. I wish he was taken up on that offer.</blockquote> 
Yeah, I did notice that the antis have labelled this "fish bones" or words to that effect. Can't say I disagree with that.

jegga

If fish bones is the best they can come up with its not that bad.
 
Here's an aussie flag idea, I sense the hand of a vexologist at work here.
 
<img src="http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/oz1.GIF" alt="oz1.GIF">

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="561937" data-time="1456902803">
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The guy that designed the AB fern offered to redesign the Lockwood fern. I wish he was taken up on that offer.
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Why can't they do that? If the goal is to present the strongest possible alternative to the existing flag they should go for it

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="561921" data-time="1456898771">
If the designer's had a brief, it could work. But the flag design guidelines were extremely vague, hence laser Kiwi etc. If you think about it, the most important thing if you're a designer (in the broad sense) is that the design will appeal to more than 50% of those who vote, so that the flag changes. Now, the vast majority of designers will want to be original IMO, meaning symbols such as the fern or the southern cross won't be included in their designs, because well if you've got a degree in design you're hardly going to choose a fern for your original design, are you. Hence all these esoteric designs like in my link, that might have "design/art" appeal, but will never ever have popular appeal. If you put those 40 designs forward, there will be small pockets of the population who really like a particular flag, but not a groundswell. The closet we probably got to a "design" flag was Red Peak...and it managed 3rd in the first round, and I extremely doubt would have taken out the current flag had it made it to the 2nd round. 
There will absolutely never be a new flag that will please everyone. It's clear the committee went around NZ, and a large number of Joe Average Kiwis said the fern and the southern cross were important to them...hence why they ended up on the chosen flag...and why that flag has a small chance of replacing the current flag.</blockquote>
 
Bam! 
What he said...

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561923" data-time="1456899045">
haha I expect the internet to blow up soon, Peter Fitzsimons has just given his opinion on the flag on Seven Sharp....following the Aussies putting an ad out telling Kiwis to support the decision. 
Some of it you wonder if it was tongue in cheek, but I dunno. <a class="bbc_url" href="https://nz.news.yahoo.com/top-stories/a/30988253/aussie-group-calling-for-kiwi-flag-change/">https://nz.news.yahoo.com/top-stories/a/30988253/aussie-group-calling-for-kiwi-flag-change/</a></blockquote>
Caught a bit of a discusson on the way home last night on ABC radio (i can't remember if it was Radio National or ABC Loocal) that was more about referendums generally than about the flag vote specifically, and host described the Lockwood flag by saying the UJ was to be replaced with a "graceful" silver fern. 
Seems to me the Aussies like new one. 
As neutrals i find that a better judgement of the design that ferals who have competing interests.

booboo

Apologies for my typing. On the phone in the semi darkness. Typos galore.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="561949" data-time="1456909636">
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Caught a bit of a discusson on the way home last night on ABC radio (i can't remember if it was Radio National or ABC Loocal) that was more about referendums generally than about the flag vote specifically, and host described the Lockwood flag by saying the UJ was to be replaced with a "graceful" silver fern. 
Seems to me the Aussies like new one. As neutrals i find that a better judgement of the design that ferals who have competing interests.
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Thats interesting , no mater what flag was nominated the "fuck John Key" ferals were never going to like it. There was another article from a leftard today saying we need to keep our ties to our colonial past, they must have to tie themselves in knots to try and rationalise such bullshit.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="561939" data-time="1456905471">
If fish bones is the best they can come up with its not that bad. 
Here's an aussie flag idea, I sense the hand of a vexologist at work here. <img src="http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/oz1.GIF" alt="oz1.GIF"></blockquote>
 
Strangely enougj when i think sbout it that could represent Aus quite well.

Frye

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="561938" data-time="1456905066">
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Yeah, I did notice that the antis have labelled this "fish bones" or words to that effect. Can't say I disagree with that.
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Yeah a lot of criticism of this particular fern design.
 
The comparison to a feather is coming up a lot.
 
But then don't all fern designs look like a feather? I mean unless you knew NZ had a fern thing, you would just guess it was a feather nearly all of the time.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="561956" data-time="1456910866">
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Yeah a lot of criticism of this particular fern design.
 
The comparison to a feather is coming up a lot.
 
But then don't all fern designs look like a feather? I mean unless you knew NZ had a fern thing, you would just guess it was a feather nearly all of the time.
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That came up early in the thread, the early rnzaf roundels had a fern but changed to a kiwi due to the feather issue.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="561955" data-time="1456910369">
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Strangely enougj when i think sbout it that could represent Aus quite well.
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For a country whos colours are green and yellow there a tiny bit of yellow and a distinct lack of green which strikes me as odd.
 
The simpsons already addressed this, 
 
<img src="http://fotw.fivestarflags.com/images/f/fic-spau.gif" alt="fic-spau.gif">

Rancid Schnitzel

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="561939" data-time="1456905471">
If fish bones is the best they can come up with its not that bad. 
Here's an aussie flag idea, I sense the hand of a vexologist at work here. <img src="http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/oz1.GIF" alt="oz1.GIF"></blockquote>
 
That is shit. But, if you managed to cram part of the Torres Strait Islands flag in there then you'd save having to fly all 3 flags at every school and govt building.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="561970" data-time="1456921723">That is shit. But, if you managed to cram part of the Torres Strait Islands flag in there</blockquote> Was going to point out they'd missed that in the horrid design. Can't get rid of the Southern Cross; too many people have it permanently etched on their body...

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561935" data-time="1456902183">
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wasnt the whole point to have people (designers, vexologists, spinners, hookers, KFC workers, fishermen, kids etc) from all walks of life make submissions anyway? 
 
I am still not convinced having a designer sitting on the panel to judge the submissions would have helped.
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I agree, if we were to ever change the national anthem I would want it designed from scratch by people with no musical background whatsoever.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="561941" data-time="1456905696">
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Why can't they do that? If the goal is to present the strongest possible alternative to the existing flag they should go for it
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Because the process is too rigid. The aim was not to produce the four strongest candidates to be voted on - anyone could see that with the worst looking black/white fern in circulation.

The Silver Fern

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