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Frye

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="561938" data-time="1456905066">
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Yeah, I did notice that the antis have labelled this "fish bones" or words to that effect. Can't say I disagree with that.
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Yeah a lot of criticism of this particular fern design.
 
The comparison to a feather is coming up a lot.
 
But then don't all fern designs look like a feather? I mean unless you knew NZ had a fern thing, you would just guess it was a feather nearly all of the time.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="561956" data-time="1456910866">
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Yeah a lot of criticism of this particular fern design.
 
The comparison to a feather is coming up a lot.
 
But then don't all fern designs look like a feather? I mean unless you knew NZ had a fern thing, you would just guess it was a feather nearly all of the time.
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That came up early in the thread, the early rnzaf roundels had a fern but changed to a kiwi due to the feather issue.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="561955" data-time="1456910369">
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Strangely enougj when i think sbout it that could represent Aus quite well.
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For a country whos colours are green and yellow there a tiny bit of yellow and a distinct lack of green which strikes me as odd.
 
The simpsons already addressed this, 
 
<img src="http://fotw.fivestarflags.com/images/f/fic-spau.gif" alt="fic-spau.gif">

Rancid Schnitzel

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="561939" data-time="1456905471">
If fish bones is the best they can come up with its not that bad. 
Here's an aussie flag idea, I sense the hand of a vexologist at work here. <img src="http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/oz1.GIF" alt="oz1.GIF"></blockquote>
 
That is shit. But, if you managed to cram part of the Torres Strait Islands flag in there then you'd save having to fly all 3 flags at every school and govt building.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="561970" data-time="1456921723">That is shit. But, if you managed to cram part of the Torres Strait Islands flag in there</blockquote> Was going to point out they'd missed that in the horrid design. Can't get rid of the Southern Cross; too many people have it permanently etched on their body...

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="561935" data-time="1456902183">
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wasnt the whole point to have people (designers, vexologists, spinners, hookers, KFC workers, fishermen, kids etc) from all walks of life make submissions anyway? 
 
I am still not convinced having a designer sitting on the panel to judge the submissions would have helped.
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I agree, if we were to ever change the national anthem I would want it designed from scratch by people with no musical background whatsoever.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="561941" data-time="1456905696">
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Why can't they do that? If the goal is to present the strongest possible alternative to the existing flag they should go for it
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Because the process is too rigid. The aim was not to produce the four strongest candidates to be voted on - anyone could see that with the worst looking black/white fern in circulation.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="561978" data-time="1456933292">
I agree, if we were to ever change the national anthem I would want it designed from scratch by people with no musical background whatsoever.</blockquote>Not really comparable IMO, I can draw a picture, and someone will claim it is art, I could try to write/play music and no one would think it was music. 
Not to mention some people want a flag kids can draw, maybe a flag with a couple of triangles woulda been better? 
Designers, vexologists and geometry teaches all had the opportunity to design a flag, and submit it for consideration, the selection panel didn't need a designer 
I wonder what people thought of the fern on DavenGallaghers And Colin Meads AB jersey's?

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="561979" data-time="1456933463">
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Because the process is too rigid. The aim was not to produce the four strongest candidates to be voted on - anyone could see that with the worst looking black/white fern in circulation.
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The only improvement that the process could have had in retrospect would have been to take the chosen selections to a designer to see if they could be improved eg there may have been a great idea that just needed its proportions tidying or its amateur looking fern sharpening up.
 
As TR says, everyone had a chance to submit.
 
But often the best ideas aren't from designers and the best designers don't have great ideas.
 
These arguments are all a waste of time now though. We have an option on the table and the simple decision is whether we want it or not.

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="561959" data-time="1456911524">
<div>
For a country whos colours are green and yellow there a tiny bit of yellow and a distinct lack of green which strikes me as odd.
 
The simpsons already addressed this, 
 
<img src="http://fotw.fivestarflags.com/images/f/fic-spau.gif" alt="fic-spau.gif">
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</blockquote>
 
One of the best episodes, Australia should also change their currency to dollarydoos too
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://qz.com/528297/yes-australians-are-really-petitioning-to-change-their-currencys-name-to-the-dollarydoo/'>http://qz.com/528297/yes-australians-are-really-petitioning-to-change-their-currencys-name-to-the-dollarydoo/</a>

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="561979" data-time="1456933463">
<div>
Because the process is too rigid. The aim was not to produce the four strongest candidates to be voted on - anyone could see that with the worst looking black/white fern in circulation.
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Process is to rigid???
That is a new one!
 
We had someone else complain that the process was to flexible in letting in red peak.

jegga

[quote name="SammyC" post="562001" timestamp="1456951806"] 
One of the best episodes, Australia should also change their currency to dollarydoos too <a class="bbc_url" href="http://qz.com/528297/yes-australians-are-really-petitioning-to-change-their-currencys-name-to-the-dollarydoo/">http://qz.com/528297/yes-australians-are-really-petitioning-to-change-their-currencys-name-to-the-dollarydoo/</a>[/ 
Owner: [sweeping a bunch of toads out] Get out, get out! Shoo, shoo. Get out of here, yuck! These bloody things are everywhere. They're in the lift, in the lorry, in the bond wizard, and all over the malonga gilderchuck. 
Clerk: They're like kangaroos, but they're reptiles, they is. 
Marge: We have them in America. They're called bullfrogs. 
Clerk: What? That's an odd name. I'd have called them "chazzwazzers".

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="562013" data-time="1456955388">
<div>
[quote name="SammyC" post="562001" timestamp="1456951806"] 
One of the best episodes, Australia should also change their currency to dollarydoos too <a class="bbc_url" href="http://qz.com/528297/yes-australians-are-really-petitioning-to-change-their-currencys-name-to-the-dollarydoo/">http://qz.com/528297/yes-australians-are-really-petitioning-to-change-their-currencys-name-to-the-dollarydoo/</a>[/ 
Owner: [sweeping a bunch of toads out] Get out, get out! Shoo, shoo. Get out of here, yuck! These bloody things are everywhere. They're in the lift, in the lorry, in the bond wizard, and all over the malonga gilderchuck. 
Clerk: They're like kangaroos, but they're reptiles, they is. 
Marge: We have them in America. They're called bullfrogs. 
Clerk: What? That's an odd name. I'd have called them "chazzwazzers".
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Maaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggge....
 
Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssaaaaaaaa.....

Hooroo

Heh heh! I just pictured that part!

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="562015" data-time="1456956101">
Heh heh! I just pictured that part!</blockquote>
 
Same here, including the bikies from mad max was a nice touch. 
I love the scene where the guy from the state dept explains that the US briefly gave a shit about the Aussies in the 80s and for some strange reason thought it was a permenant state of affairs . It works equally well if you imagine him talking about Aussie rugby fans and their team in the early 2000s

Tim

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="561818" data-time="1456861853">
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<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.designassembly.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/DA-flags-long-list-large.jpg'>http://www.designassembly.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/DA-flags-long-list-large.jpg</a>
 
Someone who considers themself a designer went through all 10,000+ designs submitted, and choose this group of 40 flags. Which tells me why I don't think designers are that necessary. Flags and art are not the same thing imo. Some of these designs appeal, but there is no way you are going to get more than 50% of the voting public rallying behind one of these flags. 
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I like this one, reminds me of an 80's Labour Party logo.
 
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/DrCXZB6.png" alt="DrCXZB6.png">

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="562075" data-time="1456968438">I like this one, reminds me of an 80's Labour Party logo. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/DrCXZB6.png" alt="DrCXZB6.png"></blockquote> Looks like a railway company logo to me.

booboo

View from Toby Manhire that I find myself not completely disagreeing with ... <a class="bbc_url" href="http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11599575">http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11599575</a> <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
At last the Great New Zealand Flag-Off has entered the final furlong, with voting in the second referendum starting today. 
And, apart from the failure to put a designer on the consideration panel, the near-empty rooms at public consultations, the mockery from international media, the decision not to listen to public views after the longlist of 40 was published, the release of a shortlist with three out of the four dominated by a fern and two of them almost identical, the law change to introduce a fifth contender, the flying of the wrong alternative flag on the harbour bridge, the accusations of distraction and legacy fixation, the interminable demands that the $26 million budget might have been better spent on this or that, the swivel-eyed conspiracy theories and moronic Facebook memes, the objectionable attacks on public figures who express a view, the point-scoring, the politicising, the claims of politicising that really just amounted themselves to politicising, the general bickering, peevishness and name-calling - apart from that, it's all gone swimmingly. 
Still, the course of flag love never did run smooth; it could be that all the turbulence is a good omen. In Canada and South Africa, remember, the changing of the flag was full of mishap, muddle and animus, too. 
If the polls are right and we stick with the current design, maybe we'll have another bash and do it better in 10 or 20 years. 
If the polls are wrong, and the Lockwood design sneaks through, maybe those of us who today squint at the sight of it will grow to like it over time. You never know. 
Promises of "robust debates" and "public conversations", however well intentioned, tend usually to produce either tumbleweed or rancour. But this one has felt worse than most. If filling out one of those intermediate-school sheets the Flag Panel distributed, asking "What do we stand for?", on the basis of the debate, I'd write simply: "Adolescent squabbling." 
I can't help but wonder if some of the vileness, on both sides, in the flag debate stems from the essential shallowness of the debate. "Let's have a big discussion about nationhood and what it means!" 
Great, you mean, for example, should we revisit our unusual constitutional status? "No, God no, not that! A big discussion about nationhood but just not that bit. Carry on!" The inevitable, almost intrinsic, superficiality gave rise to an argument that became a proxy for all sorts of other beefs and agendas: a baffling great symbolic soup. 
In hindsight, it was probably inevitable that the debate was going to become a lightning rod of anti-Key sentiment for the PM's most zealous enemies. Inevitable, but daft. To vote against the Lockwood alternative because you don't like John Key is, I think, as daft as imputing Key-loathing on the part of anyone who simply doesn't like the alternative flag. 
One more daft thing, while we're at it: the argument that declining to vote against the Union-Jacked incumbent now is to kiss goodbye the opportunity to change forever. It may not happen again for some years, but moods change like tides; who's to say it won't return to the fore in, say, 2025 or 2040? Were that to happen as part of a debate on our constitutional status, all the better. 
Key reckons that sticking with the status quo will mean no new flag without becoming a republic. But, however charming William and Kate and their children might be, a republican shift is not nearly as implausible as he implies. Key also said, a few years back, that New Zealand becoming a republic was "inevitable". 
The real political risk for Key in pushing for a flag change was never the hardcore antagonists wanting to give him a bloody nose. 
As he pointed out this week, his advocacy does not appear to have hurt his personal poll rating. What could have hurt, however, would have been a vocal keep-the-historic-flag voice from within the ranks. 
Just look, by way of contrast, at the other side of the world, where Key's friend and centre-right counterpart David Cameron is having a miserable time making a case for Britain to stay in the European Union ahead of their own, albeit miles more important, referendum. 
Last week Boris Johnson, the Old Etonian, faux-baffled, bicycle-mounted mayor of London and Tory MP, revealed that he would campaign for an Out vote. 
This wasn't about Cameron, no, no, no, of course not. It was about principle and not for a minute motivated by long-held ambitions of becoming prime minister himself. 
That no National MP with sights on the leadership has done anything remotely similar - and there are plenty of conservative-minded senior caucus members who strongly prefer the incumbent, thank you very much - just shows how solid Key's position is. The fealty runs deep. 
In the meantime, as those orange-flecked envelopes land in mailboxes, my outlandishly radical advice, for what it's worth and at risk of stating the bleeding obvious, is to vote for the flag you like the best, or dislike the least. 
On this, I'm firmly with the Prime Minister. The other day he told breakfast TV viewers that New Zealanders should "make the call on what they believe - if they like it they should vote for it, and if they don't, they shouldn't". That pretty much covers it.</blockquote>

Baron Silas Greenback

I completely and utterly disagree with his assertion that we might look at it again in 10 or 20 years. If it fails this time, no politician will have the fortitude to look at for a VERY long time.
It is incredibly delusional to think otherwise.

booboo

Actually I think we will. 
I think this process has shown there is an appetite for change. 
It's missed it's chance because the proponents gave too much credit to their personal enemies thinking the argument would be about the issue at hand. 
So unfortunately it's become a series of side issues that has derailed the process. 
Rather than a strict "I want change v I want same", and "I like new flag v I don't like new flag" decision it's become "I don't like John Key", "It costs too much think of the children", "I didn't get what I wanted", "vexology", "tea towel", "marketers with money", "I don't like the All Blacks so get the fern off there" weirdness and bullshit. 
Given a couple of years I think there may be another crack at it. 
Hopefully NZ as a society may have matured a bit by then. 
BTW for those lucky enough to vote: vite for the new one

The Silver Fern

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