Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
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Does anyone remet when the real hard fast line speed on defence became a thing? Cos we haven't innovated since then, or at least haven't innovated successfully. Our 3+ year old game plan needs a total remake. The continuity coaching set up is never going to bring that. FFS NZR we need to move on. End off this season at the latest, give the crusaders time to find a new coach, and the ABs time to plan
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@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
Too much time hanging out on Manly beach?
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
Too much time hanging out on Manly beach?
You reckon their togs are too small? I thought I saw this posted on the grumpy thread.
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@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
A year or two ago Taylor was easily our best hooker and many were touting for Perenara over Smith. Now they look like NPC is their level. That can't all be on the players? It's so prevalent.
@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
A year or two ago Taylor was easily our best hooker and many were touting for Perenara over Smith. Now they look like NPC is their level. That can't all be on the players? It's so prevalent.
Yes I am struggling with this, over the last two games seem to be so many of our experienced guys who are underperforming. That’s 2 games in a row where I would struggle to find 3 MOTM candidates.
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@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
A year or two ago Taylor was easily our best hooker and many were touting for Perenara over Smith. Now they look like NPC is their level. That can't all be on the players? It's so prevalent.
@Bones do they still use Enoka?
He used to get alot of credit for our players mental strength, now we seem to be making alot of poor decisions.
These players don't lose thier skill and ability, so what has happened, is the red and blue head stuff Henry used to talk about?
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Thoughts from a rewatch of first 50. In some ways not a bad as I thought, in others much worse. Based on first 50 don't think it is fair to blame Foster for everything.
Anyhow:
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ABs actually did quite a lot well, without doing anything extraordinary.
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Trouble is it seems there was a 5 minute outbreak of brain fade amongst ABs which, by giving away stupid penalties, relieved pressure on Pumas and in some cases also led to points.
Cole slap penalty reversal 24
Jordie no arms 25
Frizell illegal cleanout 28
Savea comes round ruck thinking ball out 29WTF!!!!
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The last of these nearly conceded a try, and then when Puma TH dropped left shoulder and bored in Moody penalised for dropping bind, which, given he was by then pushing on TH hip, was ludicrous. 3 points.
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Even then there was some light (albeit what seemed minutes lost for kick/kick off/another scrum (this time where Puma TH penalised for same thing)) and then Mo'unga overdoes kick to touch. Another scrum and half time at 16-3. It could/should have been 13-3/16-8.
Then in first 10 of second:
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AB backline runs move for what looks like first time ever and Jordie knocks on.
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Things led to another scrum in front of Puma sticks and Puma LH drags down on Lomax's jersey and he eventually goes to ground. Gardner penalises ABs, when it should have been other way around.
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To make matters worse, from lineout Puma maul draws penalty, then another stupid one from Goodhue, and hey presto it's 19-3 instead of 16-6. Huge difference at that stage.
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Last act of 50, ABs lose lineout on own throw.
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AB players need to take ownership for stupid acts of self sabotage, which made Pumas look considerably better than they probably were. That said, they could only play what was in front of them, which was a bit of a rabble.
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
More's the pity, because I think if ABs had focussed on maintaining the pressure the signs are the points would have come.
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Thoughts from a rewatch of first 50. In some ways not a bad as I thought, in others much worse. Based on first 50 don't think it is fair to blame Foster for everything.
Anyhow:
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ABs actually did quite a lot well, without doing anything extraordinary.
-
Trouble is it seems there was a 5 minute outbreak of brain fade amongst ABs which, by giving away stupid penalties, relieved pressure on Pumas and in some cases also led to points.
Cole slap penalty reversal 24
Jordie no arms 25
Frizell illegal cleanout 28
Savea comes round ruck thinking ball out 29WTF!!!!
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The last of these nearly conceded a try, and then when Puma TH dropped left shoulder and bored in Moody penalised for dropping bind, which, given he was by then pushing on TH hip, was ludicrous. 3 points.
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Even then there was some light (albeit what seemed minutes lost for kick/kick off/another scrum (this time where Puma TH penalised for same thing)) and then Mo'unga overdoes kick to touch. Another scrum and half time at 16-3. It could/should have been 13-3/16-8.
Then in first 10 of second:
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AB backline runs move for what looks like first time ever and Jordie knocks on.
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Things led to another scrum in front of Puma sticks and Puma LH drags down on Lomax's jersey and he eventually goes to ground. Gardner penalises ABs, when it should have been other way around.
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To make matters worse, from lineout Puma maul draws penalty, then another stupid one from Goodhue, and hey presto it's 19-3 instead of 16-6. Huge difference at that stage.
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Last act of 50, ABs lose lineout on own throw.
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AB players need to take ownership for stupid acts of self sabotage, which made Pumas look considerably better than they probably were. That said, they could only play what was in front of them, which was a bit of a rabble.
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
More's the pity, because I think if ABs had focussed on maintaining the pressure the signs are the points would have come.
The best analysis for me yet.
There was an interesting point in the post game analysis that showed the Pumas consistently with only 1 tackler and 14 men standing. The ABs have to figure out ( like the World Cup loss) how to win against teams that can match them physically and are good defensively.
Everyone thinks we are going to find super man players that are going to run through holes and into space that doesn’t exist e.g. as good as Sotutu and Clarke are they were just tackled yesterday like everyone else.
So for me it’s do the basics well, win the contact and don’t make errors. We just have too many players that did that yesterday and that collectively added up to a loss. As Pakman showed this was just good test rugby. Don’t make mistakes, play territory, create scoreboard pressure.
We all talk about Plan B. But we don’t have the mindset in our players to do Plan A in a test match. I actually think coaches get it more than the players but they hopefully will have seen the size of the issue yesterday. You actually need a number 8 carrying and hitting rucks and creating momentum at the get go not 60 mins in. And you want players with low error rates so you build pressure. We just are not currently capable of grinding out a win anymore. If we get back to that we will be ok.
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I see this game as an example of poor coaching, poor tactics, poor leadership, and poor team culture. The game plan was stupid, at no time was anyone adapting to the Argie rush defence. Bashing the ball up over and over is a hiding to nothing when the other team is bigger and we have a bunch of sixes and lazy front row setting up precisely nothing for the backs. For quite a few games now I've been irritated how often the backs then just shuffle the ball along the line. No gaps created, no chips over defence, no back up at the shoulder of a line break, when there always used to be an AB right there. Poor coaching.
Not sure what the hell is going on with the senior leadership team. Cane has proven to be an average captain at best, if you have a bunch of newbies and are getting penalised all the time, you can't just say follow me and disappear. These troops need marshaling. They need to be told to pull their heads in when they get pissy. Far too many are getting rattled as hell and not even doing basics right. Quite often it seems like the instinct is gone, that reliance on mates, that good balance of steady forward unleashing explosive back. Get Coles the fuck off the wing and tell him to get to the bottom of the pile where he belongs. Jordie is not a winger, stop putting him there. The Richie and BB thing is all well and good, but when they are off, they are awful. The backline was a shambles, and no half back is putting his hand up right now.
I'm actually sick of the social media stuff, the fawning hype, the ads, the extended vacations to Japan. That's all some of the players seem to care about. The best product is a team showing you they are the best, not telling you. You can't live on legacy forever, you have to keep adding to the aura to refresh it. Last night we were completely out thought, out played, out coached and out passioned. The Argies clearly have a solid team culture, bound by adversity and playing for each other. We have a bunch of guys who frequently look like they just met 5 mins before. And that sucks. -
@Bones do they still use Enoka?
He used to get alot of credit for our players mental strength, now we seem to be making alot of poor decisions.
These players don't lose thier skill and ability, so what has happened, is the red and blue head stuff Henry used to talk about?
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Bones do they still use Enoka?
He used to get alot of credit for our players mental strength, now we seem to be making alot of poor decisions.
These players don't lose thier skill and ability, so what has happened, is the red and blue head stuff Henry used to talk about?
Yeah I’m not sure Enoka is the guy because he’s been involved since the late90s / early 2000s and it was only when McCaw consulted Ceri Evans that we got the blue / red thing and we actually won a world cup
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Not an excuse but what were the ABs playing for yesterday? A Trinations trophy nobody seems particularly interested in. I suspect many of the players would much rather be with their families and young children. Yes playing for the ABs should be enough motivation for anyone but from where I'm sitting they are a long way from being mentally strong.
Argentina on the other hand have had months of build up for this one game, to beat a team they have never beaten and a clear game plan to train for.
It was obvious which team wanted it and turned up. In theory the ABs have more talent and skill on a per player basis but the Pumas were a far better team both physically and mentally.
Not sure what the answer is but I hope they use the next two weeks to figure out why the players would rather be at home than playing for the ABs.
Robertson often talks about a journey and theme with the Crusaders all the players buy into, they are all playing for him and that theme. The ABs say the right things in the press but I wonder if many of the players don't believe in Foster and the team.
I think one clip BB off handedly said Plums doesn't know what he is talking about in reference to his Achilles injury. That is a concern to me.
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@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Bones do they still use Enoka?
He used to get alot of credit for our players mental strength, now we seem to be making alot of poor decisions.
These players don't lose thier skill and ability, so what has happened, is the red and blue head stuff Henry used to talk about?
Yeah I’m not sure Enoka is the guy because he’s been involved since the late90s / early 2000s and it was only when McCaw consulted Ceri Evans that we got the blue / red thing and we actually won a world cup
@junior ah ok, well guess same question applies to Evans.
Although uncle Google says he's been there and still there...
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Enoka would have a tough job convincing a player to be mentally strong if they think the tactics, selections and gameplan is shit.
The players must be questioning the coaches or do they all take the blame themselves? -
@chimoaus not like these issues are new to 2020 though are they
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus not like these issues are new to 2020 though are they
Nope Chicago had a very similar feel to it.
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@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus not like these issues are new to 2020 though are they
Nope Chicago had a very similar feel to it.
@chimoaus another neutral venue not traditionally used for rugby too...
Maybe Aura cant get into these grounds due to another sports aura's presence?
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It is not the players. If it were the players, we would have been saying a month back how well we were doing with a very average team. (I have always had issues with Frizzell, and I really don't like picking Jordie on the wing, but they're not tragically bad. We've fielded B teams in the past that are doing better than the current team.)
They've been overseas, in an English-speaking country on approximately the same time zone, for less than a month. It can't be that they are tired of the travel. Most tours are much longer than they have been away for and involve much more travel.
It has to be the coaching set-up. They look aimless.
(Even if part of it is Cane's captaincy, which is an odd time for it to suddenly start becoming an issue, that is also part of the coaching and selection decisions.)
I had thought it would take a year for Foster to lose the AB magic. Turns out, that was optimistic.
(It was a specialty of the Foster era with the Chiefs that they would look like world-beaters against good sides, then play like turkeys against sides that they would be expected to beat easily. The pattern repeats, it would seem.)
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It is not the players. If it were the players, we would have been saying a month back how well we were doing with a very average team. (I have always had issues with Frizzell, and I really don't like picking Jordie on the wing, but they're not tragically bad. We've fielded B teams in the past that are doing better than the current team.)
They've been overseas, in an English-speaking country on approximately the same time zone, for less than a month. It can't be that they are tired of the travel. Most tours are much longer than they have been away for and involve much more travel.
It has to be the coaching set-up. They look aimless.
(Even if part of it is Cane's captaincy, which is an odd time for it to suddenly start becoming an issue, that is also part of the coaching and selection decisions.)
I had thought it would take a year for Foster to lose the AB magic. Turns out, that was optimistic.
(It was a specialty of the Foster era with the Chiefs that they would look like world-beaters against good sides, then play like turkeys against sides that they would be expected to beat easily. The pattern repeats, it would seem.)
@Chester-Draws he's done more in less time to hurt Aura than any ABs coach since John Hart went on his losing run
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Not an excuse but what were the ABs playing for yesterday? A Trinations trophy nobody seems particularly interested in. I suspect many of the players would much rather be with their families and young children. Yes playing for the ABs should be enough motivation for anyone but from where I'm sitting they are a long way from being mentally strong.
Argentina on the other hand have had months of build up for this one game, to beat a team they have never beaten and a clear game plan to train for.
It was obvious which team wanted it and turned up. In theory the ABs have more talent and skill on a per player basis but the Pumas were a far better team both physically and mentally.
Not sure what the answer is but I hope they use the next two weeks to figure out why the players would rather be at home than playing for the ABs.
Robertson often talks about a journey and theme with the Crusaders all the players buy into, they are all playing for him and that theme. The ABs say the right things in the press but I wonder if many of the players don't believe in Foster and the team.
I think one clip BB off handedly said Plums doesn't know what he is talking about in reference to his Achilles injury. That is a concern to me.
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Argentina on the other hand have had months of build up for this one game, to beat a team they have never beaten and a clear game plan to train for.
Wait, Argies don't have family? If I was an AB I'd be training to beat a team we'd never lost to.
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Well with the benefit of some space here’s my take.
The ABs have been riding their luck for a while now against a rush defence, with the theory being (as I understand it) that as defences tire you get misalignment because it becomes increasingly difficult for the big forwards to move up at pace while staying aligned with the backs. Then take advantage of the small misalignments to breach the d line.
In practice that worked too, which may be why we saw points coming in the 3rd quarter, the ABs made the oppo make tackles and tired out their forwards earlier in the game, then when the subs come on for the oppo it’s too late because they’re now playing catch-up and they have a different problem.
But all that is based on the AB doing their jobs really well. Good body position taking the tackle, good handling and great cleanouts to force the defence to move. Instead though we’ve now got slow and unreliable breakdowns so by the time the halfback has cleared the ball the rush has had plenty of time to align. As oppositions get fitter it becomes even harder manipulate the line.
I’m interested to know what Foster’s plan is now. The players obviously know their jobs but they aren’t executing. Sam Whitelock on his own isn’t going to secure quick ball for 80 minutes. And press conferences aren’t going to fix that, coaching is. But I haven’t seen any evidence of coaching happening.
If all you have to do to be AB coach now is selection then I’ll have a go. After all it seems you don’t have to actually win. I reckon I can do a selection conference then a post match where I can say the players didn’t execute. After all they’ve already fucked the legacy so I don’t have to worry about that.
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That’s good analysis from NTA. It reminds me of 1999 when NZ had talent to burn and thought they just had to turn up to win. ‘Just pass the ball to Jonah’. iIt’s also a lack of respect for the opposition and too much belief in their own myth. Most of all, it’s poor leadership and coaching. Foster’s a dead man walking.
@MrDenmore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Foster’s a dead man walking.
He is if I see him.
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@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA As a neutral are we overreacting or were we really that shit?
<SNIP>
EDIT: I mean in terms of this being rugby. You have to accept losses. Just makes it hard for you bastards you only lose occasionally.Argentina won the way you always beat the All Blacks: minimise your errors, make your tackles, and don't take any shit at set piece.
<SNIP>
That has been the AB game plan since Henry / McCaw left: defend, counterattack, and (occasionally) pull off your skills and fitness, complemented occasionally by the odd piece of streaky bullshit. And I'm not saying those skills and fitness aren't great, because the winning record over the last decade speaks for itself.
<SNIP>
The most burning example of this was Caleb Clarke: breaks 8 tackles on his way to setting up a try in Auckland, but was well looked after tonight. Simple game, really.
The first and last lines sum it up for me - I think we have been shit, we've just been lucky to have a few individuals like Caleb Clarke turn that shitness into a victory anyway.
Where I do disagree with you is in the Henry/McCaw era - we went into games with a clear game plan to put the opposition under pressure and played high percentage football to build that pressure. The opposition had to play at least above average to have a chance to beat Henry and McCaws AB's because they knew what their game plan was and knew what parts of their game they could use to suck up pressure/relieve pressure/create opportunities if that game plan wasn't delivering an outright advantage. While I won't dispute defence/counterattack/skills sometimes got us over the line, it depended on the opposition, how to exploit that teams weaknesses and how well we were playing, particularly towards the end of competitions/tours. And by and large, this continued in the Hansen/Read era although injuries to Read certainly disrupted this.
Fast forward to 2020 and Fozzies AB's versus Aussie last week. The game plan appeared to be "just throw it around and hopefully something works", when it didn't and we lost a player we briefly knuckled down to what we knew worked while down a player before coming out in the second half with no real plan again. Against Argentina we substituted no real plan for no real plan and terrible execution of the basics. While Argentina made their tackles and minimised their errors, the AB's looked directionless - how many times did we make errors under almost no pressure?
Sotutu's attempted pass to DMac in the last 10 minutes summed up the game - brilliant play and pass by Sotutu to create an opening but DMac didn't seem to be aware that it could have been an opportunity. Maybe I'm being harsh... But we are finding ways to stifle anything creative by just being shit.
@PecoTrain said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Where I do disagree with you is in the Henry/McCaw era
Point of order: I said "since [they] left"
