Black Caps v Pakistan
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Are we unanimous than Kane has clearly gone beyond Crowe (or Donnelly or Dempster or Sutcliffe depending on your prefence) as our greatest ever batsman? I know comparing eras is a bit of a waste of time but still fun to think about. I think this summer has taken him from being probably our best ever to definitely our best ever.
The next question is can Kane go clear past Hadlee as our best ever? Hadlee has a genuine claim to being one of the best of all time I think (he might miss out on the first XI but hard to leave out of the second), is Kane approaching that level? Probably missing a couple of really dominant series overseas (preferably in Australia or India) to convincingly get ahead of Hadlee.
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@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5
the only Kiwi spinner I rate actually played for the aussies anyway.Bracewell is worth a mention. Won a game for us vs Australia and was used as a weapon rather than a holding pattern.
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I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Peter Williams relaying a conversation with ICC chairman, ex NZC chairman, stating that we lose 100 grand for every test.
T20 earns, but tests cost too much - 6 tests at home and we're in the hole more than half a million.Reality sucks !
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Are we unanimous than Kane has clearly gone beyond Crowe (or Donnelly or Dempster or Sutcliffe depending on your prefence) as our greatest ever batsman? I know comparing eras is a bit of a waste of time but still fun to think about. I think this summer has taken him from being probably our best ever to definitely our best ever.
The next question is can Kane go clear past Hadlee as our best ever? Hadlee has a genuine claim to being one of the best of all time I think (he might miss out on the first XI but hard to leave out of the second), is Kane approaching that level? Probably missing a couple of really dominant series overseas (preferably in Australia or India) to convincingly get ahead of Hadlee.
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@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Peter Williams relaying a conversation with ICC chairman, ex NZC chairman, stating that we lose 100 grand for every test.
T20 earns, but tests cost too much - 6 tests at home and we're in the hole more than half a million.Reality sucks !
@Siam said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Peter Williams relaying a conversation with ICC chairman, ex NZC chairman, stating that we lose 100 grand for every test.
T20 earns, but tests cost too much - 6 tests at home and we're in the hole more than half a million.Reality sucks !
I think it is closer to a million per test NZC is losing, unless the test is against one of the big three.
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@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Even the very best teams have/had a couple of passengers relative to the rest of the squad.
Take the Aussie team of the 2000's, an incredible top order from 1-7 ( but then again a couple of lesser talents got in there from time to time ) and whilst they had two all time legends in McGrath and Warne it has to be said the likes of Gillespie, Lee and Kaspowicz were a bit of a step down.
I'm quite happy for us not to even bother with a spinner - that attack at full strength can get wickets almost anywhere and I vaguely recall that most of the wickets in the UAE when we last played tests there were down to Timmee and Trent
You're singing from my hymn sheet.
The Windies in the 80s never bothered with one and they did alright. Marshall, Holding, Garner, Croft, Roberts, Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop etc may have been better as a unit and as individuals than what we have but the principle is pretty much the same I reckon.
I cringed when we went into a match with three spinners over there a few years back.
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Even the very best teams have/had a couple of passengers relative to the rest of the squad.
Take the Aussie team of the 2000's, an incredible top order from 1-7 ( but then again a couple of lesser talents got in there from time to time ) and whilst they had two all time legends in McGrath and Warne it has to be said the likes of Gillespie, Lee and Kaspowicz were a bit of a step down.
I'm quite happy for us not to even bother with a spinner - that attack at full strength can get wickets almost anywhere and I vaguely recall that most of the wickets in the UAE when we last played tests there were down to Timmee and Trent
You're singing from my hymn sheet.
The Windies in the 80s never bothered with one and they did alright. Marshall, Holding, Garner, Croft, Roberts, Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop etc may have been better as a unit and as individuals than what we have but the principle is pretty much the same I reckon.
I cringed when we went into a match with three spinners over there a few years back.
Roger Harper played a bit.
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@Siam said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Peter Williams relaying a conversation with ICC chairman, ex NZC chairman, stating that we lose 100 grand for every test.
T20 earns, but tests cost too much - 6 tests at home and we're in the hole more than half a million.Reality sucks !
I think it is closer to a million per test NZC is losing, unless the test is against one of the big three.
@LABCAT said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Siam said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Peter Williams relaying a conversation with ICC chairman, ex NZC chairman, stating that we lose 100 grand for every test.
T20 earns, but tests cost too much - 6 tests at home and we're in the hole more than half a million.Reality sucks !
I think it is closer to a million per test NZC is losing, unless the test is against one of the big three.
Just repeating Peter Williams on the radio today. He said 100k
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@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Peter Williams relaying a conversation with ICC chairman, ex NZC chairman, stating that we lose 100 grand for every test.
T20 earns, but tests cost too much - 6 tests at home and we're in the hole more than half a million.Reality sucks !
@Siam said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Peter Williams relaying a conversation with ICC chairman, ex NZC chairman, stating that we lose 100 grand for every test.
T20 earns, but tests cost too much - 6 tests at home and we're in the hole more than half a million.Reality sucks !
Love to see the maths behind that. Are the broadcast rights worth that little?
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@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5
the only Kiwi spinner I rate actually played for the aussies anyway.Bracewell is worth a mention. Won a game for us vs Australia and was used as a weapon rather than a holding pattern.
@Siam said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5
the only Kiwi spinner I rate actually played for the aussies anyway.Bracewell is worth a mention. Won a game for us vs Australia and was used as a weapon rather than a holding pattern.
We had that minor diversion in the Greatest XI thread.
Record is comparable in some ways to Vettori although Vettori shades most measures.
Player Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
DL Vettori 112 185 28652 12330 361 Jul-87 12/149 34.15 2.58 79.3 20 3
JG Bracewell 41 67 8403 3653 102 Jun-32 10/106 35.81 2.6 82.3 4 1
If I could format that it would be easier ...
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@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Even the very best teams have/had a couple of passengers relative to the rest of the squad.
Take the Aussie team of the 2000's, an incredible top order from 1-7 ( but then again a couple of lesser talents got in there from time to time ) and whilst they had two all time legends in McGrath and Warne it has to be said the likes of Gillespie, Lee and Kaspowicz were a bit of a step down.
I'm quite happy for us not to even bother with a spinner - that attack at full strength can get wickets almost anywhere and I vaguely recall that most of the wickets in the UAE when we last played tests there were down to Timmee and Trent
You're singing from my hymn sheet.
The Windies in the 80s never bothered with one and they did alright. Marshall, Holding, Garner, Croft, Roberts, Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop etc may have been better as a unit and as individuals than what we have but the principle is pretty much the same I reckon.
I cringed when we went into a match with three spinners over there a few years back.
Roger Harper played a bit.
@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Even the very best teams have/had a couple of passengers relative to the rest of the squad.
Take the Aussie team of the 2000's, an incredible top order from 1-7 ( but then again a couple of lesser talents got in there from time to time ) and whilst they had two all time legends in McGrath and Warne it has to be said the likes of Gillespie, Lee and Kaspowicz were a bit of a step down.
I'm quite happy for us not to even bother with a spinner - that attack at full strength can get wickets almost anywhere and I vaguely recall that most of the wickets in the UAE when we last played tests there were down to Timmee and Trent
You're singing from my hymn sheet.
The Windies in the 80s never bothered with one and they did alright. Marshall, Holding, Garner, Croft, Roberts, Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop etc may have been better as a unit and as individuals than what we have but the principle is pretty much the same I reckon.
I cringed when we went into a match with three spinners over there a few years back.
Roger Harper played a bit.
You’ve made my point
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@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Even the very best teams have/had a couple of passengers relative to the rest of the squad.
Take the Aussie team of the 2000's, an incredible top order from 1-7 ( but then again a couple of lesser talents got in there from time to time ) and whilst they had two all time legends in McGrath and Warne it has to be said the likes of Gillespie, Lee and Kaspowicz were a bit of a step down.
I'm quite happy for us not to even bother with a spinner - that attack at full strength can get wickets almost anywhere and I vaguely recall that most of the wickets in the UAE when we last played tests there were down to Timmee and Trent
You're singing from my hymn sheet.
The Windies in the 80s never bothered with one and they did alright. Marshall, Holding, Garner, Croft, Roberts, Walsh, Ambrose, Bishop etc may have been better as a unit and as individuals than what we have but the principle is pretty much the same I reckon.
I cringed when we went into a match with three spinners over there a few years back.
Roger Harper played a bit.
You’ve made my point
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@Siam said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5
the only Kiwi spinner I rate actually played for the aussies anyway.Bracewell is worth a mention. Won a game for us vs Australia and was used as a weapon rather than a holding pattern.
We had that minor diversion in the Greatest XI thread.
Record is comparable in some ways to Vettori although Vettori shades most measures.
Player Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
DL Vettori 112 185 28652 12330 361 Jul-87 12/149 34.15 2.58 79.3 20 3
JG Bracewell 41 67 8403 3653 102 Jun-32 10/106 35.81 2.6 82.3 4 1
If I could format that it would be easier ...
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@Siam said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Peter Williams relaying a conversation with ICC chairman, ex NZC chairman, stating that we lose 100 grand for every test.
T20 earns, but tests cost too much - 6 tests at home and we're in the hole more than half a million.Reality sucks !
Love to see the maths behind that. Are the broadcast rights worth that little?
@MajorRage said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@Siam said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Peter Williams relaying a conversation with ICC chairman, ex NZC chairman, stating that we lose 100 grand for every test.
T20 earns, but tests cost too much - 6 tests at home and we're in the hole more than half a million.Reality sucks !
Love to see the maths behind that. Are the broadcast rights worth that little?
They did mention that as a factor actually, along with hosting costs, catering staff etc for 5 days
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@Siam Braces?
He expected a wicket each ball ...
Rember the Aussie crowds getting into him because he appealed so much, so they kept appealing with each ball he bowled.
(That may have been a result of one particular spell but I can't remember exact details.)
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@Siam Braces?
He expected a wicket each ball ...
Rember the Aussie crowds getting into him because he appealed so much, so they kept appealing with each ball he bowled.
(That may have been a result of one particular spell but I can't remember exact details.)
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@booboo bowled some cracking spells against the Aussies at Eden Park. Got Border with a peach twice!
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IMO Vettori is the best spinner to play for NZ (Grimmett is probably the best NZ-born spinner), although Braces could have done well if he'd kept playing instead of retiring as soon as he reached the 1000/100 double.
I think we can safely say now that Kane is our best test batsman, and also that Taylor is second (Taylor has surpassed everyone else IMO - we're only not lauding him as our best ever because of Kane), but it's still very close between Kane and Taylor across all international formats (Taylor has the better ODI record, most total runs and longevity).
Hadlee is a serious contender for all time world XIs, while Kane currently is nowhere near that, but as above, if he keeps at his current trajectory for the rest of his career, they would probably be close.
Kane is currently 30, debuted at 20, and has played 82 tests for ~7,000 runs, so about 85 runs/test. If he plays another 7-8 years and 60 tests at the current rate, he would have around 12,000 runs by the end at an average of 53 or so. Some of the current crop will join him there, but that would probably see him in the top 30-40 batsmen of all time.
That said, Kane had a relatively poor start (averaged 41 for the first 5 years) and has averaged over 65 since then at 95 runs/test, so that would calculate to 12,500 runs and an average of around 61. That average would probably see him in a lot more conversations - 12,000 runs at 53 is great, 13,000 runs at 61 is another level.
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IMO Vettori is the best spinner to play for NZ (Grimmett is probably the best NZ-born spinner), although Braces could have done well if he'd kept playing instead of retiring as soon as he reached the 1000/100 double.
I think we can safely say now that Kane is our best test batsman, and also that Taylor is second (Taylor has surpassed everyone else IMO - we're only not lauding him as our best ever because of Kane), but it's still very close between Kane and Taylor across all international formats (Taylor has the better ODI record, most total runs and longevity).
Hadlee is a serious contender for all time world XIs, while Kane currently is nowhere near that, but as above, if he keeps at his current trajectory for the rest of his career, they would probably be close.
Kane is currently 30, debuted at 20, and has played 82 tests for ~7,000 runs, so about 85 runs/test. If he plays another 7-8 years and 60 tests at the current rate, he would have around 12,000 runs by the end at an average of 53 or so. Some of the current crop will join him there, but that would probably see him in the top 30-40 batsmen of all time.
That said, Kane had a relatively poor start (averaged 41 for the first 5 years) and has averaged over 65 since then at 95 runs/test, so that would calculate to 12,500 runs and an average of around 61. That average would probably see him in a lot more conversations - 12,000 runs at 53 is great, 13,000 runs at 61 is another level.
@Godder said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I think we can safely say now that Kane is our best test batsman, and also that Taylor is second (Taylor has surpassed everyone else IMO - we're only not lauding him as our best ever because of Kane), but it's still very close between Kane and Taylor across all international formats (Taylor has the better ODI record, most total runs and longevity).
I'm a huge Taylor fan but he can put up all the runs he wants from now until the end of his career and he probably won't be able to get past Crowe.
Crowe has legitimate players from the late 80s/early 90s era who rate him as one of the best, if not the best, batsman they bowled against. Taylor even at his peak still had obvious idiosyncrasies (particularly early in an innings) which hold him back from being in those discussions. Very similar to the second half of Fleming's career.
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I gather that Shane Bond , although no longer a full time coach with the BCs, has been helping out when available this year, as well as being around a few of the BCs during the IPL.
As for the current state of affairs, I'm revelling in it. Best all around team I've seen from NZ - except for spin. But then again, we've never really had more than a couple of good to very good and they played during the Hadlee era.
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
But it is just fucking criminal that NZ will only play 4 tests in 2021
Kane is doing his best to schedule a fifth mid-year.
We tentatively have six schedule next summer.
