-
I'm on the fence here, partly because I know less about this than most of you, partly because I don't see a black-white solution, but would it be possible to have a trans/inter division or would that be a. too small or b. too discriminatory?
Given that some peope are actually naturally between from birth... -
A guy I follow on YT who is a weightlifter etc. He defers on the hard science to another good content creator. The bottom line appears to be the current Olympic rules on the allowed levels etc will see Hubbard competing with an advantage.
-
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@gt12 just disagree whether she is allowed to or not.
I actually think there was a missing word in my post - I don't think she should be allowed to compete, but since she is allowed to compete I wish her the best
-
@nostrildamus said in Trans weight lifter:
I'm on the fence here, partly because I know less about this than most of you, partly because I don't see a black-white solution, but would it be possible to have a trans/inter division or would that be a. too small or b. too discriminatory?
Given that some peope are actually naturally between from birth...I think that is the solution, but then trans women aren't real women.
-
I think its ludicrous. It's very clear there is is advantage there, and by allowing it, we destroy years of building up women's sport.
We bend over backwards to accommodate trans folk these days, and some of that is necessary. But they have to accept that they just can't have everything. Want to be respected and not discriminated against? Sure. Want to piss in both toilets? We'll think about it. Want to compete against chicks in sport when you used to be a bloke? Sorry.
-
@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
It's really not Laurel's fault, though. She doesn't make the rules... She's just the visible implementation of them.
I think the rules seem badly wrong on the face of it, but also don't think she should be destroyed for it. She's just playing the game as it's defined. Kind of like maul laws in rugby, I think they're crap, but you use them until they get changed. Having a 40ish trans woman winning from nowhere is likely to be evidence the rules aren't right, but it's not Laurel's issue to deal with.
I dont really agree. She's an adult capable of making grown up decisions. She's trying to cheat female athletes out of some medals. Its pathetic, I have a bit of pity for he that she can't see how much she is stinking out the joint.
My empathy for people with non conformist gender norms doesnt go this far.
-
-
@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
@rapido I get your perspective, but ultimately it's the rules but the athlete that are the problem. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree
I must admit to being ignorant as to Hubbard's particular case. I don't know if Laurel is an advocate or simply wants to compete in a sport Laurel loves at the highest level permissible. Hate the game, not the player type situation.
I don't like seeing people discriminated against nor denied agency. But the simple fact remains that transwomen have an unfair advantage against women. We don't permit doping so why would we permit participants who are restricted to levels other participants can only achieve by doping?
The solution as i see it is to have three categories of sport:
- Open.
- Females.
- Handicapped.
You play in the highest level you're capable of which in real terms means that Open is elite men. Can't get to that level and you don't have a disability or you're not female? Bad luck.
-
@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
I don't like seeing people discriminated against nor denied agency. But the simple fact remains that transwomen have an unfair advantage against women. We don't permit doping so why would we permit participants who are restricted to levels other participants can only achieve by doping?
I agree with this, and it appears trans have an (in my lay opinion) an unfair advantage. That issue lies with the rules, not with Laurel. She was a weightlifter before changing, so still doing it. Ironically, the more success she has, the more it will provide evidence that the rules are not right.
In the spirit of due diligence, I looked up weight divisions for women and men weightlifters. Superheavey for men is 110 or so; for women it's 87kg. There are almost no women who weigh in at 110 kg ... so men with that frame who transition must have a huge advantage. Anyway, this is a super touchy subject, so I'll leave it there for now
-
@nzzp said in Trans weight lifter:
@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
I don't like seeing people discriminated against nor denied agency. But the simple fact remains that transwomen have an unfair advantage against women. We don't permit doping so why would we permit participants who are restricted to levels other participants can only achieve by doping?
I agree with this, and it appears trans have an (in my lay opinion) an unfair advantage. That issue lies with the rules, not with Laurel. She was a weightlifter before changing, so still doing it. Ironically, the more success she has, the more it will provide evidence that the rules are not right.
In the spirit of due diligence, I looked up weight divisions for women and men weightlifters. Superheavey for men is 110 or so; for women it's 87kg. There are almost no women who weigh in at 110 kg ... so men with that frame who transition must have a huge advantage. Anyway, this is a super touchy subject, so I'll leave it there for now
I don't think there is a single poster on this site who agrees with the Olympic committee ruling allowing her to compete.
-
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
-
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
Define experts.
-
@booboo said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
Define experts.
Expert - one who opines with no basis on the Fern
-
@voodoo said in Trans weight lifter:
@booboo said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
Define experts.
Expert - one who opines with no basis on the Fern
In other words someone with rocks where their brain should be and who seriously thinks Hubbard competing is ok.
-
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
@nostrildamus why not have their own competition? The physical differences are stark. They are not women physically even with the introduction of hormones. Whether they believe they are female or not their bodies don’t match their desired emotional state. I don’t think we have to defer to experts all the time. Common sense and logic often trumps these fools.
That’s simply never going to happen. The trans advocacy movement is very powerful right now and they’ve made it clear that their goal is to ensure there is no distinction at all between women and transwomen. The endgame must be that when anyone says the word woman in any circumstance or situation they are including people who were born female, people who have transitioned from male to female, and anybody who identifies as a woman. When they say transwomen are women, they mean exactly that.
Any compromise such as you’d have suggested, however sensible, must fail because it would run counter to the goal of complete 100% parity.
I think anyone who believes that trans activism won’t sacrifice women’s sport in its entirety to achieve their version of parity has really misread the politics at play here.
-
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@antipodean said in Trans weight lifter:
@crucial said in Trans weight lifter:
@broughie said in Trans weight lifter:
So anyone on the fern rooting for this kiwi trans weightlifter. I hope this person ruptures a testical, I mean, whatever is left. This is plain wrong.
Science says otherwise. Olympics applies very strict scientific criteria around what does and doesn't create an unfair advantage in this, and other, situations around gender eligibility. They say she qualifies and holds no more or less advantage.
That's utter horseshit. Hubbard has had the benefit of decades of testosterone providing a larger frame, bigger muscles, greater aerobic capacity etc. None of this disappears because Hubbard wears heels and some lippy. The science is unequivocal and to pretend the corrupt organisation known as the Olympics has applied genuine rigor to this is laughable.
I wonder how all of those other large strong women got that way to compete. Their bodies developed differently to other women as well. Perhaps they also shouldn't be allowed to compete if they have high testosterone within the acceptable range.
I strongly dislike this argument. I don't think you have bad intentions, in fact quite the opposite, but this is really misleading.
Of course there is variation within the sexes, that's why I'm not an All Black, could never play pro basketball or be a top weight lifter. There's even overlap between the sexes - Serena Williams would smoke plenty of male tennis players for example.
But we're not talking about matching up the weakest men against the strongest women here. We're talking about professional sports - the strongest men vs the strongest women. Here there is no overlap at all. None. Nada. Nil. The strongest women is not even in the same stratosphere as the strongest man. Serena got smoked by an alcoholic male that was outside the top 200 and in poor physical condition. She could barely get a point off him. It was laughable and her bold "I want to play against the men" statements evaporated.
And so we have Hubbard. A male that would never get even close to the top of his field transitioning to female later in life, past the peak of an athlete, and immediately shooting straight to the top of the female division. That's seriously not fair on women that have slogged their guts out and are at the peak of their career age wise with a small window for winning a medal. It makes a farce of women's sports which have come such a long way in recent times to be taken seriously.
I just can't believe this is even up for debate let alone actually happening, and I'm utterly ashamed that NZ is sending a biological male to compete against women that have trained their whole lives for this moment.
-
In MMA, where trans women have entered and busted up their opponents so badly, they have hospitalized their opponents. Joe Rogan is quite opinionated about this as well saying for safety's sake, they need to look at the "real" science.
-
@no-quarter said in Trans weight lifter:
I just can't believe this is even up for debate let alone actually happening, and I'm utterly ashamed that NZ is sending a biological male to compete against women that have trained their whole lives for this moment.
so ... how do you stop it? It's the framework and the regulations that are wrong, not the individual athletes. If NZ Olympics didn't pick their best eligible athletes, there'd be judicial reviews and they'd get smacked. Their hands are tied, they are forced to be blind to this issue.
But yes, one of the outcomes could be destroying women's sport as we know it.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
