Americas Cup
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@snowy said in Americas Cup:
Pretty sure that the loan comment came from Butterworth when he sold out too and I wouldn't trust him either.
Complete snake pit.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/bertarelli-millions-fund-team-nz/G3W756SIA64E5AW5NDZRBWOD2A/
Grant said it too. I think the sooner we get away from the idea that AC sailing is about nations vs nations the better. It's all about the money
@canefan said in Americas Cup:
@snowy said in Americas Cup:
Pretty sure that the loan comment came from Butterworth when he sold out too and I wouldn't trust him either.
Complete snake pit.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/bertarelli-millions-fund-team-nz/G3W756SIA64E5AW5NDZRBWOD2A/
Grant said it too. I think the sooner we get away from the idea that AC sailing is about nations vs nations the better. It's all about the money
What was the rule that we introduced about nationality to stop some of that a few years back?
This will be the new one:
A new rule will require 100 per cent of the race crew for each competitor to either be a passport holder of the country of the team’s yacht club as of Friday [March 19] or to have been physically present in that country for two of the previous three years before March 18.
An exception will be made, with a discretionary provision allowing a quota of non-nationals on the race crew for competitors from “Emerging Nations”. -
@canefan said in Americas Cup:
@snowy said in Americas Cup:
Pretty sure that the loan comment came from Butterworth when he sold out too and I wouldn't trust him either.
Complete snake pit.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/bertarelli-millions-fund-team-nz/G3W756SIA64E5AW5NDZRBWOD2A/
Grant said it too. I think the sooner we get away from the idea that AC sailing is about nations vs nations the better. It's all about the money
What was the rule that we introduced about nationality to stop some of that a few years back?
This will be the new one:
A new rule will require 100 per cent of the race crew for each competitor to either be a passport holder of the country of the team’s yacht club as of Friday [March 19] or to have been physically present in that country for two of the previous three years before March 18.
An exception will be made, with a discretionary provision allowing a quota of non-nationals on the race crew for competitors from “Emerging Nations”.@snowy said in Americas Cup:
@canefan said in Americas Cup:
@snowy said in Americas Cup:
Pretty sure that the loan comment came from Butterworth when he sold out too and I wouldn't trust him either.
Complete snake pit.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/bertarelli-millions-fund-team-nz/G3W756SIA64E5AW5NDZRBWOD2A/
Grant said it too. I think the sooner we get away from the idea that AC sailing is about nations vs nations the better. It's all about the money
What was the rule that we introduced about nationality to stop some of that a few years back?
This will be the new one:
A new rule will require 100 per cent of the race crew for each competitor to either be a passport holder of the country of the team’s yacht club as of Friday [March 19] or to have been physically present in that country for two of the previous three years before March 18.
An exception will be made, with a discretionary provision allowing a quota of non-nationals on the race crew for competitors from “Emerging Nations”.Trying to bring it back to a national contest. Which funnily enough is the vision Coutts has with Sailing GP
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Yes that is the plan I believe. The irony of Coutts trying to make anything national is beyond belief.
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I do love some AC drama, this is interesting if true, i know they have to be sponsored by a yacht club and would be huge if they were to move away from RNZYS
I dont know what the agreement between ETNS and RNZYS looks like, is it pretty symbolic or does RNZYS has some sort of influence on ETNZ...is it in perpetuity or is it a event to event kind of deal
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I do love some AC drama, this is interesting if true, i know they have to be sponsored by a yacht club and would be huge if they were to move away from RNZYS
I dont know what the agreement between ETNS and RNZYS looks like, is it pretty symbolic or does RNZYS has some sort of influence on ETNZ...is it in perpetuity or is it a event to event kind of deal
@kiwiwomble said in Americas Cup:
I do love some AC drama, this is interesting if true, i know they have to be sponsored by a yacht club and would be huge if they were to move away from RNZYS
I dont know what the agreement between ETNS and RNZYS looks like, is it pretty symbolic or does RNZYS has some sort of influence on ETNZ...is it in perpetuity or is it a event to event kind of deal
If TNZ won the cup under the entry of the RNZYS then surely they have to keep depending it as such don't they?
Isn't the AC held between YCs and not 'teams'? -
@kiwiwomble said in Americas Cup:
I do love some AC drama, this is interesting if true, i know they have to be sponsored by a yacht club and would be huge if they were to move away from RNZYS
I dont know what the agreement between ETNS and RNZYS looks like, is it pretty symbolic or does RNZYS has some sort of influence on ETNZ...is it in perpetuity or is it a event to event kind of deal
If TNZ won the cup under the entry of the RNZYS then surely they have to keep depending it as such don't they?
Isn't the AC held between YCs and not 'teams'?@crucial im really not certain
edit: Just talking to my "yachty mate" and he said "The RNZYS is the defender represented by Emirates Team New Zealand" and there for cant change, he also said he didn't buy it was a real issue
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@kiwiwomble said in Americas Cup:
I do love some AC drama, this is interesting if true, i know they have to be sponsored by a yacht club and would be huge if they were to move away from RNZYS
I dont know what the agreement between ETNS and RNZYS looks like, is it pretty symbolic or does RNZYS has some sort of influence on ETNZ...is it in perpetuity or is it a event to event kind of deal
If TNZ won the cup under the entry of the RNZYS then surely they have to keep depending it as such don't they?
Isn't the AC held between YCs and not 'teams'?@crucial said in Americas Cup:
Isn't the AC held between YCs and not 'teams'?
As I understand it yes. Deed of gift stuff, but that is also bullshit because it was supposed to be:
“challenge trophy" to promote friendly competition among nationsThat horse bolted long ago.
The cup is held by a yacht club that appoints a defender (again if I have the deed stuff correct). RNZYS members may well have a point. If everybody walks from ETNZ it isn't a great one though.
@Kiwiwomble I have no idea about the influence on ETNZ be nice to know though. Also a time frame as you say.
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@crucial said in Americas Cup:
Isn't the AC held between YCs and not 'teams'?
As I understand it yes. Deed of gift stuff, but that is also bullshit because it was supposed to be:
“challenge trophy" to promote friendly competition among nationsThat horse bolted long ago.
The cup is held by a yacht club that appoints a defender (again if I have the deed stuff correct). RNZYS members may well have a point. If everybody walks from ETNZ it isn't a great one though.
@Kiwiwomble I have no idea about the influence on ETNZ be nice to know though. Also a time frame as you say.
@snowy ive always thought the drama around the AC is a lot of fun....as long as we get racing at the end of it, you're right ultimately dropping ETNZ wouldn't be good for anyone, hopefully its enough to scare ENTZ into staying in NZ
I can just see someone like coutts rocking up and offering to defend it for RNZYS in NZ, the Ocacle Team New Zealand or something :cat_face_with_tears_of_joy:
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@snowy ive always thought the drama around the AC is a lot of fun....as long as we get racing at the end of it, you're right ultimately dropping ETNZ wouldn't be good for anyone, hopefully its enough to scare ENTZ into staying in NZ
I can just see someone like coutts rocking up and offering to defend it for RNZYS in NZ, the Ocacle Team New Zealand or something :cat_face_with_tears_of_joy:
@kiwiwomble Yeah rich pricks throwing money at lawyers is fun (I'm kidding, I like AC drama as well). Didn't think that we would see it like this here but it's the cup and it happens everywhere.
Your last sentence is both amusing and fucking hideous. Also possible.
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@snowy ive always thought the drama around the AC is a lot of fun....as long as we get racing at the end of it, you're right ultimately dropping ETNZ wouldn't be good for anyone, hopefully its enough to scare ENTZ into staying in NZ
I can just see someone like coutts rocking up and offering to defend it for RNZYS in NZ, the Ocacle Team New Zealand or something :cat_face_with_tears_of_joy:
@kiwiwomble said in Americas Cup:
I can just see someone like coutts rocking up and offering to defend it for RNZYS in NZ, the Oracle Team New Zealand or something
Fuck yes, please. I'm currently working for the Evil-Big-Red-O - and would presumably get free tickets and rides on the boat and shit.
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@kiwiwomble said in Americas Cup:
I can just see someone like coutts rocking up and offering to defend it for RNZYS in NZ, the Oracle Team New Zealand or something
Fuck yes, please. I'm currently working for the Evil-Big-Red-O - and would presumably get free tickets and rides on the boat and shit.
@kruse share?
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“We are aware of a RNZYS member, [America’s Cup lawyer] Mr Hamish Ross, who acts for the New York Yacht Club (NYYC) and recently delivered a wildcard challenge as well as their proposed protocol to the Commodore of the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron (RNZYS) on behalf of the New York Yacht Club,” Team New Zealand said in a statement. “Mr Ross appears to be leading the agenda of the NYYC who he represents by seeking to impose their agenda on the RNZYS and the 37th America’s Cup.” -
Sailing professor Mark Orams: D-Day for Team New Zealand as compromise looms for future of America's Cup
Mark Orams
OPINION
The racing may be over for 2021 but the controversy that always accompanies the America's Cup never sleeps.
Tonight's meeting between Team New Zealand boss Grant Dalton and the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron, the official holders of the Auld Mug, is a huge moment in the history of the famous trophy.
I suspect it will be an emotionally charged meeting with Dalton trying to convince the members that the only way to fund Team NZ is to take the next defence of the cup offshore. Many in the audience will vehemently oppose this, determined that it should remain here.
At stake, I believe, will be the very future of the current Team New Zealand line up.
Peter Burling, Blair Tuke and the rest of this amazing team are the most successful in America's Cup history. As we saw during the defence of the cup in Auckland this year, Team New Zealand has the jump on the opposition in terms of talent and intellectual property.
But financial pressure means the team is in danger of losing its competitive advantage as happened 20-odd years ago, with disastrous results.
Back then, our best talent was raided by the opposition, the Kiwi team was left on its knees, the cup was lost to a skilled and well-organised opponent, and it took 15 long years to get it back.
My hope, and plea to all involved, is that we don't put ourselves in this position again.
My understanding is that the Emirates airline, which has been TNZ's principal backer, will not be continuing with their sponsorship.
But whether they stay or not, Dalton may still be in a position where he needs to take the next contest overseas, in order to secure the massive amounts of money needed to keep the team together.
Whether anyone likes it or not, cash is key at this level of professional sport.
Dalton has been through negotiations with the New Zealand Government and local council and it is obvious their financial offer is not enough. There are no New Zealand-based sponsors with deep enough pockets either.
So where does Dalton find the $200m needed?
Internationally, there are a select few high-net-worth individuals who admire and are envious of Team New Zealand's achievements. They want to replicate it – or perhaps even buy into it.
It is this scenario that he will be talking through with the membership of the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron tonight.
To cut to the chase, I believe the answer may lie in the proposal put forward by the British team Ineos, who are prepared to stump up with a huge amount of money in return for a special one-on-one challenge at the Isle of Wight next year. In return billionaire owner Sir Jim Ratcliffe will guarantee Auckland as the next venue over the 2023/24 summer even if he wins the Isle of Wight challenge.
Okay, this may not be ideal. But if it keeps TNZ together, it is worth the trade-off.
And I don't think it would be all bad.
Brand New Zealand would get promoted in Europe next year, the America's Cup momentum would be sustained while generating interest in the key northern hemisphere cities, and most importantly multinational sponsors would get exposure in big markets.
For RNZYS members, and the wider New Zealand public – the benefit is that the Cup will be hosted here in Auckland in 2023/24 – and hopefully in a world where COVID-19 is under control and we have the opportunity to host teams, fans, sponsors and super-yachts.
It's a difficult compromise – but if it allows Team New Zealand to stay intact and competitive – it might be a compromise worth making. Dalton's challenge is to convince the squadron membership of this and to successfully persuade them that the alternative is not palatable. That is, a significantly weakened Team New Zealand lines up in 2022/23 summer and loses, badly.
One thing is certain about Dalts - he hates losing with a passion.
He has faced many challenges in his long sailing career. This is certainly another one where he will be facing further controversy. He will need all of his famed determination and thick skin to get through it.
When approached by the Herald, Team NZ CEO Grant Dalton said they were unaware of suggestions Emirates intend to end their sponsorship.
"Emirates have been the naming rights sponsor of the team for 18 years. We have no knowledge of this, however, we are well aware (of) the difficulties that all airlines are experiencing at present due to Covid so (we) would in fact be completely understanding if that was the case."
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Sailing professor Mark Orams: D-Day for Team New Zealand as compromise looms for future of America's Cup
Mark Orams
OPINION
The racing may be over for 2021 but the controversy that always accompanies the America's Cup never sleeps.
Tonight's meeting between Team New Zealand boss Grant Dalton and the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron, the official holders of the Auld Mug, is a huge moment in the history of the famous trophy.
I suspect it will be an emotionally charged meeting with Dalton trying to convince the members that the only way to fund Team NZ is to take the next defence of the cup offshore. Many in the audience will vehemently oppose this, determined that it should remain here.
At stake, I believe, will be the very future of the current Team New Zealand line up.
Peter Burling, Blair Tuke and the rest of this amazing team are the most successful in America's Cup history. As we saw during the defence of the cup in Auckland this year, Team New Zealand has the jump on the opposition in terms of talent and intellectual property.
But financial pressure means the team is in danger of losing its competitive advantage as happened 20-odd years ago, with disastrous results.
Back then, our best talent was raided by the opposition, the Kiwi team was left on its knees, the cup was lost to a skilled and well-organised opponent, and it took 15 long years to get it back.
My hope, and plea to all involved, is that we don't put ourselves in this position again.
My understanding is that the Emirates airline, which has been TNZ's principal backer, will not be continuing with their sponsorship.
But whether they stay or not, Dalton may still be in a position where he needs to take the next contest overseas, in order to secure the massive amounts of money needed to keep the team together.
Whether anyone likes it or not, cash is key at this level of professional sport.
Dalton has been through negotiations with the New Zealand Government and local council and it is obvious their financial offer is not enough. There are no New Zealand-based sponsors with deep enough pockets either.
So where does Dalton find the $200m needed?
Internationally, there are a select few high-net-worth individuals who admire and are envious of Team New Zealand's achievements. They want to replicate it – or perhaps even buy into it.
It is this scenario that he will be talking through with the membership of the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron tonight.
To cut to the chase, I believe the answer may lie in the proposal put forward by the British team Ineos, who are prepared to stump up with a huge amount of money in return for a special one-on-one challenge at the Isle of Wight next year. In return billionaire owner Sir Jim Ratcliffe will guarantee Auckland as the next venue over the 2023/24 summer even if he wins the Isle of Wight challenge.
Okay, this may not be ideal. But if it keeps TNZ together, it is worth the trade-off.
And I don't think it would be all bad.
Brand New Zealand would get promoted in Europe next year, the America's Cup momentum would be sustained while generating interest in the key northern hemisphere cities, and most importantly multinational sponsors would get exposure in big markets.
For RNZYS members, and the wider New Zealand public – the benefit is that the Cup will be hosted here in Auckland in 2023/24 – and hopefully in a world where COVID-19 is under control and we have the opportunity to host teams, fans, sponsors and super-yachts.
It's a difficult compromise – but if it allows Team New Zealand to stay intact and competitive – it might be a compromise worth making. Dalton's challenge is to convince the squadron membership of this and to successfully persuade them that the alternative is not palatable. That is, a significantly weakened Team New Zealand lines up in 2022/23 summer and loses, badly.
One thing is certain about Dalts - he hates losing with a passion.
He has faced many challenges in his long sailing career. This is certainly another one where he will be facing further controversy. He will need all of his famed determination and thick skin to get through it.
When approached by the Herald, Team NZ CEO Grant Dalton said they were unaware of suggestions Emirates intend to end their sponsorship.
"Emirates have been the naming rights sponsor of the team for 18 years. We have no knowledge of this, however, we are well aware (of) the difficulties that all airlines are experiencing at present due to Covid so (we) would in fact be completely understanding if that was the case."
@tim that would have to be one hell of a rock solid guarantee
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@tim what he mean surely is no choice if ETNZ is to have the budget they want/need to defend it successfully
which then asks the question is hosting it here again and all the financial benefits that come with it worth not being competitive
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Dalton is trying to avoid a repeat of the Coutts/ Berterelli fiasco. AC is a rich man's game, if we can't pay to keep the band together there is nothing stopping them taking themselves and all that IC with them to the highest bidder. But as someone else said, if they do end up signing for a one on one challenge with Ineos for example, any promises to return to Auckland for the next challenge better be ironclad
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so, assuming everything he says is correct, would people rather have one more comp in NZ and risk losing it (due to lack of funding meaning staff leave etc) or sell out, take it overseas and keep it?
