All Blacks vs Fiji 2
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A couple of points from Parsons about the game:
Ball carrying quality was a big factor in our poor ruck work.
ABs had a strong emphasis on counter attack from kicks, with the midfielders putting a lot effort into getting back when Fiji kicked. Also ties in with keeping a loose forward near each sideline.
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@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 And how many tries has Clarke scored? For people who go on about finishers, part of finishing is getting in the best position to score....
In terms of total tries, Bridge has a very good record - 11 tries from 12 tests.
Clark has only one from five tests.
However, Bridge's numbers are inflated by 5 against in Tonga in two tests, 2 against Japan, and 1 against Fiji.
If we compare their performances in the Rugby Championship (as that is the only international experience Clarke has), they are pretty similar.
In five tests, Clarke has one try against Argentina.
Similarly, in four tests, Bridge has one try in the Rugby Championship (although one against SA at the WC also).
None of that is counting the occasions when they both played in the same game and Clarke made a much bigger difference than Bridge e.g., Australia draw last year where Clarke came on in the 69th minute and made more metres in 11 minutes than Bridge managed in 80 while beating 4 men (Bridge beat one).
I thought that Bridge would be a similar player to BFA, but sadly he just doesn't have the footwork to be a force at this level. He can score tries if others create for him (like the try laid on by Havili this last week), but he doesn't create for others.
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 And how many tries has Clarke scored? For people who go on about finishers, part of finishing is getting in the best position to score....
In terms of total tries, Bridge has a very good record - 11 tries from 12 tests.
Clark has only one from five tests.
However, Bridge's numbers are inflated by 5 against in Tonga in two tests, 2 against Japan, and 1 against Fiji.
If we compare their performances in the Rugby Championship (as that is the only international experience Clarke has), they are pretty similar.
In five tests, Clarke has one try against Argentina.
Similarly, in four tests, Bridge has one try in the Rugby Championship (although one against SA at the WC also).
None of that is counting the occasions when they both played in the same game and Clarke made a much bigger difference than Bridge e.g., Australia draw last year where Clarke came on in the 69th minute and made more metres in 11 minutes than Bridge managed in 80 while beating 4 men (Bridge beat one).
I thought that Bridge would be a similar player to BFA, but sadly he just doesn't have the footwork to be a force at this level. He can score tries if others create for him (like the try laid on by Havili this last week), but he doesn't create for others.
Talk about manipulating stats to get your point of view across. You don't work in academia, do you? :grinning_face:
From another perspective, you have proven that Clarke is a poor finisher. Something I have noted from Super rugby as well.
The only thing I will concede is that Clarke does have the potential to be a great AB. But right now, on current form and past performances, Bridge should be in the ABs ahead of Clarke. -
@frank said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Ben Smith was the world's best fullback. He never lost form, as he proved in his performance against Wales for 3rd/4th playoff.
Bridge looked initially like he might be Ben Smith v2.0, but the gulf between them is vast right now.
Oh, how we miss the good old back three with Smith, Barrett (B)and Ioane. Such talent by comparison, even with Smith at 14
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@frank said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Ben Smith was the world's best fullback. He never lost form, as he proved in his performance against Wales for 3rd/4th playoff.
Bridge looked initially like he might be Ben Smith v2.0, but the gulf between them is vast right now.
Oh, how we miss the good old back three with Smith, Barrett (B)and Ioane. Such talent by comparison, even with Smith at 14
If you go back and watch the Tonga test, snip the good bits of Bridge and the good bits of Jordan out and you can reminisce on BFA.
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@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Ball carrying quality was a big factor in our poor ruck work.
Holy shit I typed a whole rambling post about Laulala trying to say that, who knew I could have been that much more succinct.
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@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
Occasionally, but he’s also just another Owen Franks - makes 10 tackles, misses 2, and carries for fuck all.
We need more from our props!
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@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
Occasionally, but he’s also just another Owen Franks - makes 10 tackles, misses 2, and carries for fuck all.
We need more from our props!
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
Occasionally, but he’s also just another Owen Franks - makes 10 tackles, misses 2, and carries for fuck all.
We need more from our props!
Yeah, it gets annoying when they're there under the guise of being a strong scrummager - when what that translates to is - wins slightly more scrums on his own ball.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
Occasionally, but he’s also just another Owen Franks - makes 10 tackles, misses 2, and carries for fuck all.
We need more from our props!
Yeah, it gets annoying when they're there under the guise of being a strong scrummager - when what that translates to is - wins slightly more scrums on his own ball.
@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
Occasionally, but he’s also just another Owen Franks - makes 10 tackles, misses 2, and carries for fuck all.
We need more from our props!
Yeah, it gets annoying when they're there under the guise of being a strong scrummager - when what that translates to is - wins slightly more scrums on his own ball.
Its one thing I like about DeGroot - his scrummaging might be a work on, but he can also carry and is involved. The two young Crusader props could (will) also be very good, and I still have some hope for Moli - he’s a great ball carrier who can hold up a side.
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@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@booboo said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
the thing that makes me wonder about foster the most
areas like loosies and midfield, we're trying to find new incumbents...but he never plays the same combos more than once, play Ioane 3-4 time in a row, let him settle in! playing someone for one games...then not even 23, then bench, then starting again is never going to get the comfortable
There was no need to play frizell on sat, i like him, think he doesn't get enough credit around here...but we know what he can do int the black jersey, we dont need to keep testing him
Injuries have played a huge part in the midfield selections over the past number of years. Plus the fact we came to the end of a period where we had two pretty durable players in Smith and Nonu that were constants for a long time.
During that era though we did try a number of players around those two, with mixed success mind you.
Trying to find that right combination with players that have relative inexperience, plus injuries, is not an easy one for the coaches, whether that be Henry, Hansen and now Foster.
Can't disagree with your comments on the problems the coaches have had, but Conrad & Ma'a departed 6 years ago and we've had an awful lot of buggering about and weird selections at 12/13 since then. How much time do they need?
Not blaming Foster for all of this and he needs a bit of time to decide on his midfield but at some stage in the very near future they need to decide on their top combinations and stick to them.
Well best at RWC2019 was SBW and JG with ALB off the bench, but they didn't pick that.
Currently it should be ALB and JG (with Rieko on the wing) but they can't pick that.
I feel like the less this guy plays, the better he gets viewed.
It's been quite some time since he had a good test. I like him and I think he's world class, but ALB has a better body of work over the last few years, and so (perhaps) does Roane.
I don't - and I find it interesting his "lack of pace" is often mentioned, it'd be good to see an example of what this actually means. He was bloody good at centre as a young fella, if he'd have been allowed to stick there, I feel we might have seen a lot more come of him. But yeah at 12 he's a complete dud.
I am a big fan of JG. I was saying a few years ago the ABs should build the backline around him. Error free on attack and defense, and superb at putting people into space. It used to be a real surprise when he made a mistake and he seemed to do the right thing at the right time.
Not sure what happened, but the last two years or so errors started to creep into his game. Trying too hard in the transition from role playing youngster to experienced leader?
As for his lack of pace, it was never a problem for Smith. JG does struggle to beat players on the outside, and I do remember being surprised at how easily he was caught from behind when it looked for all money he was going to score.
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
As for his lack of pace, it was never a problem for Smith.
I always thought Conrad had a fair turn of pace at full gallop.
Agree with your points on JG though. Used to as solid as a rock at 13.
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Hansen and Foster have built up a pretty solid body of work when it comes to ridiculous selections and/or playing players out of position to the detriment of that player and the team now.
- Dual playmaker at the RWC - absolute disaster, putting our senior 10 at the back to make way for a rookie that couldn't handle the pressure. Idiotic and has hurt both players form at test level.
- Benching Sam Cane for the RWC semi final when we knew England would try to bash us up front. Seriously what in the God Damn Fuck were they thinking.
- Forging ahead with Bridge on the wing instead of someone that actually offers threat.
- Playing Goodhue at 12 when he was cementing himself in the team as a world class 13. His form suffered badly as a result.
- Playing Jordie on the wing after what I regard as his breakout season for the Canes at 15. Absolutely stuffed his confidence at test level where he ended up trying too much as it's not his natural position at all.
- Not developing Akira Ioane as our 6, instead giving others who aren't up to it chance after chance. If player management isn't the absolute crux of their job then I don't know what they fuck they are doing in the role.
I'm sure I've missed some there. And further to that, instead of addressing the glaring issue of not getting go-forward up front, they've just decided to hell with it let's just spin it wide early and hope for the best. Arrogant and idiotic game plans against world class organised defenses that puts our players under all sorts of pressure and leads to a high error rate.
It's fair to say I have precisely 0 confidence in our coaches and selectors right now.
@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hansen and Foster have built up a pretty solid body of work when it comes to ridiculous selections and/or playing players out of position to the detriment of that player and the team now.
- Dual playmaker at the RWC - absolute disaster, putting our senior 10 at the back to make way for a rookie that couldn't handle the pressure. Idiotic and has hurt both players form at test level.
- Benching Sam Cane for the RWC semi final when we knew England would try to bash us up front. Seriously what in the God Damn Fuck were they thinking.
- Forging ahead with Bridge on the wing instead of someone that actually offers threat.
- Playing Goodhue at 12 when he was cementing himself in the team as a world class 13. His form suffered badly as a result.
- Playing Jordie on the wing after what I regard as his breakout season for the Canes at 15. Absolutely stuffed his confidence at test level where he ended up trying too much as it's not his natural position at all.
- Not developing Akira Ioane as our 6, instead giving others who aren't up to it chance after chance. If player management isn't the absolute crux of their job then I don't know what they fuck they are doing in the role.
I'm sure I've missed some there. And further to that, instead of addressing the glaring issue of not getting go-forward up front, they've just decided to hell with it let's just spin it wide early and hope for the best. Arrogant and idiotic game plans against world class organised defenses that puts our players under all sorts of pressure and leads to a high error rate.
It's fair to say I have precisely 0 confidence in our coaches and selectors right now.
You missed their continually mucking around with ALB, a world-class midfielder.
I'd also add to your list their failure to bring James Ryan out of retirement to liven up the tight 5.
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@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
As for his lack of pace, it was never a problem for Smith.
I always thought Conrad had a fair turn of pace at full gallop.
Agree with your points on JG though. Used to as solid as a rock at 13.
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
As for his lack of pace, it was never a problem for Smith.
I always thought Conrad had a fair turn of pace at full gallop.
Agree with your points on JG though. Used to as solid as a rock at 13.
Yeah, I never thought Smith was slow either - awkward, lumbering running style - but pace never was a glaring issue.
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James Ryan. Where have I seen that name before?
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
James Ryan. Where have I seen that name before?
You might be confusing him with James Blackie.
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@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
Occasionally, but he’s also just another Owen Franks - makes 10 tackles, misses 2, and carries for fuck all.
We need more from our props!
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
Occasionally, but he’s also just another Owen Franks - makes 10 tackles, misses 2, and carries for fuck all.
We need more from our props!
We've also seen what happens when we start a weak scrummager - Lomax against Argentina - and we get drilled at set piece, and get put on the back foot throughout the game.
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@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hansen and Foster have built up a pretty solid body of work when it comes to ridiculous selections and/or playing players out of position to the detriment of that player and the team now.
- Dual playmaker at the RWC - absolute disaster, putting our senior 10 at the back to make way for a rookie that couldn't handle the pressure. Idiotic and has hurt both players form at test level.
- Benching Sam Cane for the RWC semi final when we knew England would try to bash us up front. Seriously what in the God Damn Fuck were they thinking.
- Forging ahead with Bridge on the wing instead of someone that actually offers threat.
- Playing Goodhue at 12 when he was cementing himself in the team as a world class 13. His form suffered badly as a result.
- Playing Jordie on the wing after what I regard as his breakout season for the Canes at 15. Absolutely stuffed his confidence at test level where he ended up trying too much as it's not his natural position at all.
- Not developing Akira Ioane as our 6, instead giving others who aren't up to it chance after chance. If player management isn't the absolute crux of their job then I don't know what they fuck they are doing in the role.
I'm sure I've missed some there. And further to that, instead of addressing the glaring issue of not getting go-forward up front, they've just decided to hell with it let's just spin it wide early and hope for the best. Arrogant and idiotic game plans against world class organised defenses that puts our players under all sorts of pressure and leads to a high error rate.
It's fair to say I have precisely 0 confidence in our coaches and selectors right now.
I agree with all those points except the third. George Bridge has come on in leaps and bounds as a playmaker.
I genuinely don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
Sarcasm. Bridge is the Fern's new whipping boy.
Not entirely true. @Stag and @Stargazer do some top quality white knighting
No, I repeat what I said a few days ago. I've never been a Bridge fanboy. I've only said that he had a great SR in 2019 and he deserved his selection then, esp because RIoane wasn't performing. They had to pick someone better and at that time that was Bridge. Since then, he hasn't delivered, but he's not the only one.
I have not been white knighting Bridge. I'm just fed up with the way a large group of Ferners is using him as the "whipping boy" (to use @Crazy-Horse 's words). Him, or anyone. I just hate the way individual players are singled out, over and over again, and get the sh*t piled on them. That's all.
I dont' think it's anti-cantab bias, but having said that, I can't see a player from the Fern's favourite franchise becoming the Fern's whipping boy ..
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Ticket sales good
https://twitter.com/AllBlacks/status/1414819377891794945?s=19
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@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
Occasionally, but he’s also just another Owen Franks - makes 10 tackles, misses 2, and carries for fuck all.
We need more from our props!
We've also seen what happens when we start a weak scrummager - Lomax against Argentina - and we get drilled at set piece, and get put on the back foot throughout the game.
@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
Occasionally, but he’s also just another Owen Franks - makes 10 tackles, misses 2, and carries for fuck all.
We need more from our props!
We've also seen what happens when we start a weak scrummager - Lomax against Argentina - and we get drilled at set piece, and get put on the back foot throughout the game.
True, although Lomax offers about the same around the field as Laulala, with the added bonus of being a RC threat too.
Edit: btw, I’m not suggesting that set piece isn’t important or vital, just that we need better coaching to get more out of props. They cant just hold up a side, lift in the scrums, and clean. We also need them to have some running and passing ability. Most NH sides have players equally good at scrummaging but are also ball carriers.
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That's why I would continue to use Ta'avao. His scrummaging is no worse than Lomax (probably better) and offers so much more around the field. Not a liability with his tackling technique either.
@bovidae said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
That's why I would continue to use Ta'avao. His scrummaging is no worse than Lomax (probably better) and offers so much more around the field. Not a liability with his tackling technique either.
I think he’s better in a bench role though, as he can do that role without being too exposed at scrum time. Ofa plus Ta’avao could be the best we’ve got but if Moli was fit I’d quite like him in that bench role.
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@bones said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@tim said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bones the whole starting front row was poor, but Laulala and Bower in particular. At least Laulala can hit in defense.
Occasionally, but he’s also just another Owen Franks - makes 10 tackles, misses 2, and carries for fuck all.
We need more from our props!
Yeah, it gets annoying when they're there under the guise of being a strong scrummager - when what that translates to is - wins slightly more scrums on his own ball.
Its one thing I like about DeGroot - his scrummaging might be a work on, but he can also carry and is involved. The two young Crusader props could (will) also be very good, and I still have some hope for Moli - he’s a great ball carrier who can hold up a side.
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@gt12 I like that Ollie Norris kid seems to have something special with ball in hand and know much about his scrummaging
