Pasifika SR team
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First rugby post here ...
I follow NZ rugby closely from afar and Moana Pasifika "appears" a cool idea "in theory" but practically I'm d*mned if I can see it achieving it's lofty goals unless it can maintain a core squad with say 50% of the squad having ALREADY played for Samoa or Tonga i.e. REALLY locked in.
Up-and-coming talent can either make themselves eligible for the ABs if NZ resident, by moving to an NZR franchise and-of-year (can they be stopped, under NZ employment law, or contractually with multi-year contracts??).
Or they can make more cash overseas, Europe or increasingly in Japan with an expanding pro competition.
Otherwise at best, it looks like a sixth franchise with a dollop of "we're helping the islands, aren't we very nice and PC?" which will scoop up mainly borderline SR talent, diluting other NZR franchise squad talent and may help Australia compete in SR (may, lol).
Then adding a sprinking of (being realistic?) ex-ABs or borderline ABs reminds me of Thrush and Kahui at the force. Good for TV viewer numbers, great marketing, but not much more in terms of rugby success.Thinking long-term about Pacific Island Rugby in Samoa and Tonga, due to the grand-parent international eligibility rule and high percentages already being resident and citizens in NZ ... surely over time fewer and fewer "Pacifika" folk will even be eligible to play for Samoa and Tonga unless rules change?
So if it can even survive competitively and commercially, it becomes a sixth NZ (-based) franchise with a "Pacifika flavour".
Which is fine ... but can we expect any more, unless international and SR structures change significantly?
What am I missing????
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@derpus said in Pasifika SR team:
@landp nothing. It's a dumb idea. Just like SR Pacific as a whole.
Yeah, SR Pacific strikes me as as a makeshift commercial compromise which is unsustainable in the long-term. Simply because the two main partners have different agendas and needs -
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NZR uses it (has ALWAYS used it!) as vehicle to supply and control the golden-goose ABs - want higher quality, systemic control of player and coaching resource. Less is more.
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Oz want (and now NEED) to regrow their local base - need local or perceived success/winners. Also probably (not sure tbh) Oz need the SR TV money rather more heavily than NZR do? More is more.
New Drua and MP teams don't achieve much in propping up SR in reality beyond being cannon-fodder for more matches, therefore more TV money.
It's like a co-dependent relationship, right? Both partners ideally want something "better" but they can't afford to split up because of money and the "kids" :winking_face:
Problem is, I can't see a solution i.e. something that works for both parties given where they will be over the next - say - 5 years. But both are also fighting off Japan who will increasingly become a major rugby power, at least in commercial terms.
Hence SR Pacific looking a botch job ... but frankly hasn't ST always been a botch job????
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Yep - rugby in the pacific is fucked.
The co-dependency thing could have been broken by RA but they refuse to even entertain the idea of a domestic comp. Something every fan in Aus wants.
Chasing the TV money is fools gold. The pot gets smaller each year and it stops them from addressing the fundamentals.
Twiggy just raked in 2.7bn - maybe after this two year abortion is over we can suck him off for some loose change and try our own thing.
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ive decided to just treat it as a new NZ team and try and look forward to the new comp, if they achieve what theyre trying then great...if they dont then at very least its someone new to play
Me too. I will enjoy the rugby regardless. Especially NZ derbies which are ... brutal and the best rugby outside Internationals. Better than most of those tbh.
But ... I'd almost rather that NZR just moved straight to a sixth "very Pacifika-flavoured" NZR franchise upfront with a likely stronger player base. But then they couldn't be seen to be propping up Samoa and Tonga?
There are (????) some smart people in NZR so for me the fact Aaron Mauger is coach from day 1 makes me wonder if they know there is a fair chance they may have to pick it themselves downstream, once it flops a bit. Sadly a bit like they picked up the Blues tbh.
Result would be they can progressively take control of a sixth NZ franchise ... and with a nice brand ... over say 5 years while looking to a wider / worldwide audience like they are doing their best to help out PI rugby.
That's what I'd be doing if I were competent like Steve Tew or whoever the new bloke is ... Robinson-something. Robinson Crusoe? :winking_face:
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Keep Fiji Dura and MP in a NZ super comp,Expand to Include Japan,USA and even Argentina to create a 10 team or 11 team (2 Japanese teams )SR comp and let Australia move off and have their own domestic comp.
the SR competition wouldn't really be much weaker without the Australian teams and through developing the Japanese connection it might be stronger. -
Keep Fiji Dura and MP in a NZ super comp,Expand to Include Japan,USA and even Argentina to create a 10 team or 11 team (2 Japanese teams )SR comp and let Australia move off and have their own domestic comp.
the SR competition wouldn't really be much weaker without the Australian teams and through developing the Japanese connection it might be stronger. -
Keep Fiji Dura and MP in a NZ super comp,Expand to Include Japan,USA and even Argentina to create a 10 team or 11 team (2 Japanese teams )SR comp and let Australia move off and have their own domestic comp.
the SR competition wouldn't really be much weaker without the Australian teams and through developing the Japanese connection it might be stronger.@chris Japan have no need or motivation I can see to be involved as a minor partner in SR given they are hugely developing their local pro league?? Sunwolves was never their big priority.
For many reasons I'm sure they'd now rather simply develop locally under their commercial control and hire in coaching and player talent including from NZ and Oz as is happening more and more... which we all can see I'm sure?
Long term (think in 10 max 20 years) they're a huge commercial threat to SR's existence and current Oz/NZ control. I'm not sure how Australian Pro rugby can fend that off at all levels. NZ may be able to via more and more "sabbaticals" but ultimately money talks and Japan is a huge economy with clubs supported or built around multi national companies.
Possible SR model downstream might be local leagues in Japan, NZ, Australia with no crossover but feeding into a Super League like soccer in Europe. Would suit Australia too imho. NZ certainly less so!
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@chris Japan have no need or motivation I can see to be involved as a minor partner in SR given they are hugely developing their local pro league?? Sunwolves was never their big priority.
For many reasons I'm sure they'd now rather simply develop locally under their commercial control and hire in coaching and player talent including from NZ and Oz as is happening more and more... which we all can see I'm sure?
Long term (think in 10 max 20 years) they're a huge commercial threat to SR's existence and current Oz/NZ control. I'm not sure how Australian Pro rugby can fend that off at all levels. NZ may be able to via more and more "sabbaticals" but ultimately money talks and Japan is a huge economy with clubs supported or built around multi national companies.
Possible SR model downstream might be local leagues in Japan, NZ, Australia with no crossover but feeding into a Super League like soccer in Europe. Would suit Australia too imho. NZ certainly less so!
@landp i think a full partner including playing in the RC but starting with one or two super teams is more like it, i think they would commit to something like that
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@landp i think a full partner including playing in the RC but starting with one or two super teams is more like it, i think they would commit to something like that
@kiwiwomble said in Pasifika SR team:
@landp i think a full partner including playing in the RC but starting with one or two teams is more like it, i think they would commit to something like that
Yeah I believe that’s were we are headed.
NZ has made it clear there is a big financial benefit to getting close to Japan.
Japan has also signalled they would like some sort of club involvement with SR. -
@landp i think a full partner including playing in the RC but starting with one or two super teams is more like it, i think they would commit to something like that
@kiwiwomble I don't think they would. What happens with those two teams? are they removed from their domestic comp? Or do they have to play SR concurrently.
The Japanese league is a corporate pissing contest. They don't give a fuck about SR.
Not to mention the 10 hour flight time.
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@kiwiwomble said in Pasifika SR team:
@landp i think a full partner including playing in the RC but starting with one or two teams is more like it, i think they would commit to something like that
Yeah I believe that’s were we are headed.
NZ has made it clear there is a big financial benefit to getting close to Japan.
Japan has also signalled they would like some sort of club involvement with SR.@chris said in Pasifika SR team:
@kiwiwomble said in Pasifika SR team:
@landp i think a full partner including playing in the RC but starting with one or two teams is more like it, i think they would commit to something like that
Yeah I believe that’s were we are headed.
NZ has made it clear there is a big financial benefit to getting close to Japan.
Japan has also signalled they would like some sort of club involvement with SR.The key point of getting some proper Japanese teams in SR, not a made up entity like the SW, is it being part for the RC. That's the carrot that will mean Japan Rugby would seriously engage with SR. Without that, it'll just be more Sunwolves type shit who got no money from JRU
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@kiwiwomble I don't think they would. What happens with those two teams? are they removed from their domestic comp? Or do they have to play SR concurrently.
The Japanese league is a corporate pissing contest. They don't give a fuck about SR.
Not to mention the 10 hour flight time.
@derpus said in Pasifika SR team:
@kiwiwomble I don't think they would. What happens with those two teams? are they removed from their domestic comp? Or do they have to play SR concurrently.
The Japanese league is a corporate pissing contest. They don't give a fuck about SR.
Not to mention the 10 hour flight time.
i would have thought two franchises picked from the domestic comp like NZ or a champions league approach of the top two teams play super rugby the next year would be pretty simple...hell it might get them throwing even more money at rugby if there was extra distance to be achieved in the pissing contest by playing in super rugby
10 hours flight but with a small time difference is a hell of a lot easier than what we achieved with RSA for the last 25 years, overnight flight, sorted
Ive done an over night flight to japan before and skied the afternoon we landed, and im not a professional sportsman with all the support they're given
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@derpus said in Pasifika SR team:
@kiwiwomble I don't think they would. What happens with those two teams? are they removed from their domestic comp? Or do they have to play SR concurrently.
The Japanese league is a corporate pissing contest. They don't give a fuck about SR.
Not to mention the 10 hour flight time.
i would have thought two franchises picked from the domestic comp like NZ or a champions league approach of the top two teams play super rugby the next year would be pretty simple...hell it might get them throwing even more money at rugby if there was extra distance to be achieved in the pissing contest by playing in super rugby
10 hours flight but with a small time difference is a hell of a lot easier than what we achieved with RSA for the last 25 years, overnight flight, sorted
Ive done an over night flight to japan before and skied the afternoon we landed, and im not a professional sportsman with all the support they're given
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@landp i think a full partner including playing in the RC but starting with one or two super teams is more like it, i think they would commit to something like that
@kiwiwomble Possible! You'd certainly need to offer something like Japan gaining full partnership in the RC to engage them at a lower level for an SR structure. They are or soon will be a powerhouse financially.
I'm not at all sure the relationship between Japan Rugby and the clubs though?
We may be assuming it's all central like NZ or Ireland or Wales but reality may be a lot more like England or France in which case... well good luck negotiating in that case.
Great and big idea though, certainly the type of thinking needed.
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@chris said in Pasifika SR team:
@kiwiwomble said in Pasifika SR team:
@landp i think a full partner including playing in the RC but starting with one or two teams is more like it, i think they would commit to something like that
Yeah I believe that’s were we are headed.
NZ has made it clear there is a big financial benefit to getting close to Japan.
Japan has also signalled they would like some sort of club involvement with SR.The key point of getting some proper Japanese teams in SR, not a made up entity like the SW, is it being part for the RC. That's the carrot that will mean Japan Rugby would seriously engage with SR. Without that, it'll just be more Sunwolves type shit who got no money from JRU
@machpants said in Pasifika SR team:
@chris said in Pasifika SR team:
@kiwiwomble said in Pasifika SR team:
@landp i think a full partner including playing in the RC but starting with one or two teams is more like it, i think they would commit to something like that
Yeah I believe that’s were we are headed.
NZ has made it clear there is a big financial benefit to getting close to Japan.
Japan has also signalled they would like some sort of club involvement with SR.The key point of getting some proper Japanese teams in SR, not a made up entity like the SW, is it being part for the RC. That's the carrot that will mean Japan Rugby would seriously engage with SR. Without that, it'll just be more Sunwolves type shit who got no money from JRU
Yep totally agree RC first
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@kiwiwomble a champions cup style format is the only thing i see working. I like it.
@derpus said in Pasifika SR team:
@kiwiwomble a champions cup style format is the only thing i see working. I like it.
Agreed.
Local competitions, no crossover
Local final and local champions
Then a Champions Cup formatHealthier for Australian rugby given its current state imo
Fits a Japanese club model
Won't suit NZR at all, right? Bunch of All Blacks doing nothing for X weeks...
But yes, it's the best overall concept that's practical assuming seasons are aligned to fit.
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@derpus said in Pasifika SR team:
@kiwiwomble a champions cup style format is the only thing i see working. I like it.
Agreed.
Local competitions, no crossover
Local final and local champions
Then a Champions Cup formatHealthier for Australian rugby given its current state imo
Fits a Japanese club model
Won't suit NZR at all, right? Bunch of All Blacks doing nothing for X weeks...But yes, it's the best overall concept that's practical assuming seasons are aligned to fit.
@landp i was meaning the winner of the japanese domestic comp plays a full super rugby season the next year, champions league rather than champions cup, you play for the right to play super rugby each year
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@landp i was meaning the winner of the japanese domestic comp plays a full super rugby season the next year, champions league rather than champions cup, you play for the right to play super rugby each year
@kiwiwomble said in Pasifika SR team:
@landp i was meaning the winner of the japanese domestic comp plays a full super rugby season the next year, champions league rather than champions cup, you play for the right to play super rugby each year
The proposed new competition in Japan is 12 teams and fully professional (right now, it is mixed like NPC), so it would be relatively easy to have a cross-border Champions-league style competition with all 24 teams, split according to finishing order in their relevant competitions (Top 6 go to Pacific Club team Championship, bottom six go to Pacific Club team Cup).
More details here.
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@kiwiwomble said in Pasifika SR team:
@landp i was meaning the winner of the japanese domestic comp plays a full super rugby season the next year, champions league rather than champions cup, you play for the right to play super rugby each year
The proposed new competition in Japan is 12 teams and fully professional (right now, it is mixed like NPC), so it would be relatively easy to have a cross-border Champions-league style competition with all 24 teams, split according to finishing order in their relevant competitions (Top 6 go to Pacific Club team Championship, bottom six go to Pacific Club team Cup).
More details here.
@gt12 said in Pasifika SR team:
@kiwiwomble said in Pasifika SR team:
@landp i was meaning the winner of the japanese domestic comp plays a full super rugby season the next year, champions league rather than champions cup, you play for the right to play super rugby each year
The proposed new competition in Japan is 12 teams and fully professional (right now, it is mixed like NPC), so it would be relatively easy to have a cross-border Champions-league style competition with all 24 teams, split according to finishing order in their relevant competitions (Top 6 go to Pacific Club team Championship, bottom six go to Pacific Club team Cup).
More details here.
From the link:
In addition to the regular home and away conference matches, there will be inter-conference matches in which teams will play all six teams outside their conference once. As such, each Division One team will play 10 conference matches and six inter-conference matches, for a total of 16 matches in the regular season.Seems their administrators possess a lot more common sense than those in charge of SR.
