Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth)
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@nzzp said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@delicatessen said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
If dangerous contact with the head is a red card offence (no matter the intent, nor the outcome), then shouldn't whoever knocked Savea and Codie's heads be carded too? Just cos they weren't out in the open, doesn't mean they aren't dangerous.
... and Hooper's facial cut from Retallick.
The key for me is foreseeability of action. Lifting your sprigs, even in reflex, can directly lead to sprigs in faces. The link to Paolo Odogwu is clear - no intent, but a reckless action. That's what will probably sink JB here.
The other contacts arguably aren't part of reckless actions- tackles gone wrong (Taylor, Savea), or just dynamic running (Retallick). So I can see a differentiator.
Agreed. Running with the ball isn't reckless, lifting your boot studs up while catching a ball — is.
There's a thread on reddit with 4(!) other examples. So it's not that uncommon. And they're all red cards too. Tevita Nabura playing for the Highlanders copped a red and a 6 week ban.
What might save Jordie is he didn't flick his leg as much as others, he just hung it out.
@frye said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@delicatessen said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
If dangerous contact with the head is a red card offence (no matter the intent, nor the outcome), then shouldn't whoever knocked Savea and Codie's heads be carded too? Just cos they weren't out in the open, doesn't mean they aren't dangerous.
... and Hooper's facial cut from Retallick.
The key for me is foreseeability of action. Lifting your sprigs, even in reflex, can directly lead to sprigs in faces. The link to Paolo Odogwu is clear - no intent, but a reckless action. That's what will probably sink JB here.
The other contacts arguably aren't part of reckless actions- tackles gone wrong (Taylor, Savea), or just dynamic running (Retallick). So I can see a differentiator.
Agreed. Running with the ball isn't reckless, lifting your boot studs up while catching a ball — is.
There's a thread on reddit with 4(!) other examples. So it's not that uncommon. And they're all red cards too. Tevita Nabura playing for the Highlanders copped a red and a 6 week ban.
What might save Jordie is he didn't flick his leg as much as others, he just hung it out.
Not sure how this will go,lifting your boot studs while catching a ball is reckless is, so is jumping leading with a knee if someone cops knee in face, but almost everyone does it as it almost impossible to jump up with legs straight.
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@frye said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@delicatessen said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
If dangerous contact with the head is a red card offence (no matter the intent, nor the outcome), then shouldn't whoever knocked Savea and Codie's heads be carded too? Just cos they weren't out in the open, doesn't mean they aren't dangerous.
... and Hooper's facial cut from Retallick.
The key for me is foreseeability of action. Lifting your sprigs, even in reflex, can directly lead to sprigs in faces. The link to Paolo Odogwu is clear - no intent, but a reckless action. That's what will probably sink JB here.
The other contacts arguably aren't part of reckless actions- tackles gone wrong (Taylor, Savea), or just dynamic running (Retallick). So I can see a differentiator.
Agreed. Running with the ball isn't reckless, lifting your boot studs up while catching a ball — is.
There's a thread on reddit with 4(!) other examples. So it's not that uncommon. And they're all red cards too. Tevita Nabura playing for the Highlanders copped a red and a 6 week ban.
What might save Jordie is he didn't flick his leg as much as others, he just hung it out.
Not sure how this will go,lifting your boot studs while catching a ball is reckless is, so is jumping leading with a knee if someone cops knee in face, but almost everyone does it as it almost impossible to jump up with legs straight.
@dan54 said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
Not sure how this will go,lifting your boot studs while catching a ball is reckless is, so is jumping leading with a knee if someone cops knee in face, but almost everyone does it as it almost impossible to jump up with legs straight.
Yep, but it's a degree and a proximity thing. Knees are close to the body, and if you hit it, it's like a tackle. In fairness to Kerevi, he was a long way back, and waiting to tackle. Raised sprigs make that bloody hard, and dangerous.
I don't like the outcome, as it's reflexvely reckless, but I can see the logic and the likely suspension incoming.
One thing I haven't seen (and haven't seen video again) is - did JB get bumped on his way up? If so, it may be a minor mitigation of some form (the Benjamin Fall defence, right)
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@frye said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@delicatessen said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
If dangerous contact with the head is a red card offence (no matter the intent, nor the outcome), then shouldn't whoever knocked Savea and Codie's heads be carded too? Just cos they weren't out in the open, doesn't mean they aren't dangerous.
... and Hooper's facial cut from Retallick.
The key for me is foreseeability of action. Lifting your sprigs, even in reflex, can directly lead to sprigs in faces. The link to Paolo Odogwu is clear - no intent, but a reckless action. That's what will probably sink JB here.
The other contacts arguably aren't part of reckless actions- tackles gone wrong (Taylor, Savea), or just dynamic running (Retallick). So I can see a differentiator.
Agreed. Running with the ball isn't reckless, lifting your boot studs up while catching a ball — is.
There's a thread on reddit with 4(!) other examples. So it's not that uncommon. And they're all red cards too. Tevita Nabura playing for the Highlanders copped a red and a 6 week ban.
What might save Jordie is he didn't flick his leg as much as others, he just hung it out.
Not sure how this will go,lifting your boot studs while catching a ball is reckless is, so is jumping leading with a knee if someone cops knee in face, but almost everyone does it as it almost impossible to jump up with legs straight.
Knees lift in the jump to gain height and used as protection. It’s pretty standard technique for players. You can see he arched backward just before he caught the ball which lead to his leg raising up.
Its the direct contact to the face that will see him get some time off. They won’t ignore that.
Which is a problem for us as I don’t think we won’t to be facing the kick boks with Dmac as fullback. JBs height would
Be invaluable along with his kicking from hand.Especially when you consider the games are in sub tropical Townsville. The Boks won’t want a fast paced game and will kick the crap out of it.
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Knees lift in the jump to gain height and used as protection. It’s pretty standard technique for players. You can see he arched backward just before he caught the ball which lead to his leg raising up.
Its the direct contact to the face that will see him get some time off. They won’t ignore that.
Which is a problem for us as I don’t think we won’t to be facing the kick boks with Dmac as fullback. JBs height would
Be invaluable along with his kicking from hand.Especially when you consider the games are in sub tropical Townsville. The Boks won’t want a fast paced game and will kick the crap out of it.
@dagrubster Jordan must be an option at the back?
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@nostrildamus said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
https://teara.govt.nz/en/cartoon/38760/all-blacks-and-make-up-2004
I never saw or heard the nickname used outside of the Fern. That could be my problem but is it possible that we made 'te ara'?
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@dan54 said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
Not sure how this will go,lifting your boot studs while catching a ball is reckless is, so is jumping leading with a knee if someone cops knee in face, but almost everyone does it as it almost impossible to jump up with legs straight.
Yep, but it's a degree and a proximity thing. Knees are close to the body, and if you hit it, it's like a tackle. In fairness to Kerevi, he was a long way back, and waiting to tackle. Raised sprigs make that bloody hard, and dangerous.
I don't like the outcome, as it's reflexvely reckless, but I can see the logic and the likely suspension incoming.
One thing I haven't seen (and haven't seen video again) is - did JB get bumped on his way up? If so, it may be a minor mitigation of some form (the Benjamin Fall defence, right)
@nzzp said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@dan54 said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
Not sure how this will go,lifting your boot studs while catching a ball is reckless is, so is jumping leading with a knee if someone cops knee in face, but almost everyone does it as it almost impossible to jump up with legs straight.
Yep, but it's a degree and a proximity thing. Knees are close to the body, and if you hit it, it's like a tackle. In fairness to Kerevi, he was a long way back, and waiting to tackle. Raised sprigs make that bloody hard, and dangerous.
I don't like the outcome, as it's reflexvely reckless, but I can see the logic and the likely suspension incoming.
One thing I haven't seen (and haven't seen video again) is - did JB get bumped on his way up? If so, it may be a minor mitigation of some form (the Benjamin Fall defence, right)
No bump, was in the clear and owned the space. Kerevi wasn't waiting he was moving into the space. I believe that is the argument the ABs are using in defence. As a player in the air JB had rights to the space he needed to come down safely.
It was just a plain old accident of a dynamic situation.
I do hope @ACT-Crusader has sent them that video of BBall players jumping though. Clear evidence that the leg extension is common amongst tall athletes when leaping high. -
@nostrildamus said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
https://teara.govt.nz/en/cartoon/38760/all-blacks-and-make-up-2004
I never saw or heard the nickname used outside of the Fern. That could be my problem but is it possible that we made 'te ara'?
@crucial said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@nostrildamus said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
https://teara.govt.nz/en/cartoon/38760/all-blacks-and-make-up-2004
I never saw or heard the nickname used outside of the Fern. That could be my problem but is it possible that we made 'te ara'?
No. Was pretty common back in the day.
I didn't find the Fern till 2004 after we shifted to Oz and knew he was Meg prior to that.
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My limited understanding based on snippets read is that "deliberate contact to the head with force" constitutes a RC.
So, break that down:
- deliberate? No
- head? Yes
- force? Minimal
Other mitigating factors?
- seeking balance for safety
- orange player impeding ability to safely execute
Struggling to get RC out of that.
Seeing a clip subsequent to the game it's clear Murphy immediately called for the TMO to "check that". So the TMO review IMO wasn't an impartial review of the facts, it was a process to try and confirm Murphy's immediate reaction.
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I found that thread and am watching the similar examples.
Nabura's one was intentional and the ref says so before even watching a second time. He catches the ball, looks at the incoming player and sticks his leg out deliberately while coming down.
Dan Evans on Teddy Thomas. Similar to JBs in that the leg went out for balance and Thomas ran into it. At the time the commentators said 'just unfortunate accident' and were very surprised at the RC. Not sure if the ruling was published but will have a search.
Adam Hastings. Completely overbalanced after a fairly low jump.
I really don't understand what the law makers want. They don't want to remove jumping for the ball as that is an exciting athletic part of the game yet it seems that accidents in the jumping zone get harshly punished. A 'tackler' can't touch the jumper in the air in case they land badly yet a jumper can't try and land safely themselves without it being a reckless act?
Surely the easiest thing to do here is to keep with the judgement of it being a 'competition for the ball' but if you aren't in that competition you cannot move into the jumpers landing space. There will still be times when you are jumped into and haven't got out of the way but it is well understood now to watch your position when a high kick comes and either contest the ball or get away.
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Found some quotes on the Dan Evans one. IMO this is the precedent that will cause us problems in defending this.
Firstly Ospreys didn't challenge the ruling. They decided the risk of an 8 week ban was too costly and cut their losses with a guilty plea (this is why I hate that system. Bad decisions get justification because challenging is punished)
A statement from the independent disciplinary panel continued: "There were no aggravating factors, and taking into account the player's guilty plea and timely expression of remorse, the committee reduced the sanction by the maximum of 50 per cent before imposing a four-week suspension."
They upheld the RC by saying his action was reckless. I would strongly question how a human instinct to stop yourself falling over can be reckless.
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You'd have to go back and find when Marshall first went for the blonde highlights to know the timeframe for the nickname. It was certainly used on r.s.r.u (usenet newsgroups), which predate TSF and other web-based sites.
@bovidae said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
You'd have to go back and find when Marshall first went for the blonde highlights to know the timeframe for the nickname. It was certainly used on r.s.r.u (usenet newsgroups), which predate TSF and other web-based sites.
Boy. Just had a look at that usenet group and it is now a repository of the biggest pile of shite imaginable. Just by looking at the page I am now probably on a watchlist!
Surely google should be shutting down these unmonitored feral sounding boards. They are a gateway to all the things wrong with the world. -
Found some quotes on the Dan Evans one. IMO this is the precedent that will cause us problems in defending this.
Firstly Ospreys didn't challenge the ruling. They decided the risk of an 8 week ban was too costly and cut their losses with a guilty plea (this is why I hate that system. Bad decisions get justification because challenging is punished)
A statement from the independent disciplinary panel continued: "There were no aggravating factors, and taking into account the player's guilty plea and timely expression of remorse, the committee reduced the sanction by the maximum of 50 per cent before imposing a four-week suspension."
They upheld the RC by saying his action was reckless. I would strongly question how a human instinct to stop yourself falling over can be reckless.
@crucial its the ABs, he will get it reversed, RC rescinded and a try awarded to his record.
I cant see anything lower than 3 weeks.
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@crucial its the ABs, he will get it reversed, RC rescinded and a try awarded to his record.
I cant see anything lower than 3 weeks.
@taniwharugby said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@crucial its the ABs, he will get it reversed, RC rescinded and a try awarded to his record.
I cant see anything lower than 3 weeks.
Would be minimum 4 weeks even with a guilty plea which is why the ABs are disputing.
Any head contact RC goes in a minimum 8 weeks. Mitigation can reduce that by half but pleading not guilty and therefore not owning it takes away one of the common mitigations.The definition of reckless implies a voluntary action. If I was arguing this to the judiciary that would be the main point. If he had no control over lifting that leg other than an instinctive action to not fall and risk injury then his action can't be reckless by definition.
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@taniwharugby said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@crucial its the ABs, he will get it reversed, RC rescinded and a try awarded to his record.
I cant see anything lower than 3 weeks.
Would be minimum 4 weeks even with a guilty plea which is why the ABs are disputing.
Any head contact RC goes in a minimum 8 weeks. Mitigation can reduce that by half but pleading not guilty and therefore not owning it takes away one of the common mitigations.The definition of reckless implies a voluntary action. If I was arguing this to the judiciary that would be the main point. If he had no control over lifting that leg other than an instinctive action to not fall and risk injury then his action can't be reckless by definition.
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@crucial have seen dangerous tackles with head contact and a RC get 3 weeks? Are they treated differently?
@taniwharugby said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@crucial have seen dangerous tackles with head contact and a RC get 3 weeks? Are they treated differently?
I think it is the original charge situation. Maybe dangerous tackle mid point is 6 weeks and kick in head is 8?
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@taniwharugby said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@crucial have seen dangerous tackles with head contact and a RC get 3 weeks? Are they treated differently?
I think it is the original charge situation. Maybe dangerous tackle mid point is 6 weeks and kick in head is 8?
@crucial that is the problem, it wasnt a kick, it was reckless use of ones foot
No way that they should start the process at the same place as someone that deliberately kicked someones head.
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Knees lift in the jump to gain height and used as protection. It’s pretty standard technique for players. You can see he arched backward just before he caught the ball which lead to his leg raising up.
Its the direct contact to the face that will see him get some time off. They won’t ignore that.
Which is a problem for us as I don’t think we won’t to be facing the kick boks with Dmac as fullback. JBs height would
Be invaluable along with his kicking from hand.Especially when you consider the games are in sub tropical Townsville. The Boks won’t want a fast paced game and will kick the crap out of it.
@dagrubster said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
Knees lift in the jump to gain height and used as protection. It’s pretty standard technique for players. You can see he arched backward just before he caught the ball which lead to his leg raising up.
Its the direct contact to the face that will see him get some time off. They won’t ignore that.
Which is a problem for us as I don’t think we won’t to be facing the kick boks with Dmac as fullback. JBs height would
Be invaluable along with his kicking from hand.Especially when you consider the games are in sub tropical Townsville. The Boks won’t want a fast paced game and will kick the crap out of it.
Mate, I think red card was fair enough, but will not be surprised if it seen as enough. There will be lawyers, and experts on dynamics of jumping etc to show why this or that happened, and I suspect the fact that Marika was moving into his space will have a lot to do with outcome, even Dave Rennie was adamant it was completely accidental in press conference etc and think just maybe the board will say that is enough punishment.
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@dagrubster said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
Knees lift in the jump to gain height and used as protection. It’s pretty standard technique for players. You can see he arched backward just before he caught the ball which lead to his leg raising up.
Its the direct contact to the face that will see him get some time off. They won’t ignore that.
Which is a problem for us as I don’t think we won’t to be facing the kick boks with Dmac as fullback. JBs height would
Be invaluable along with his kicking from hand.Especially when you consider the games are in sub tropical Townsville. The Boks won’t want a fast paced game and will kick the crap out of it.
Mate, I think red card was fair enough, but will not be surprised if it seen as enough. There will be lawyers, and experts on dynamics of jumping etc to show why this or that happened, and I suspect the fact that Marika was moving into his space will have a lot to do with outcome, even Dave Rennie was adamant it was completely accidental in press conference etc and think just maybe the board will say that is enough punishment.
@dan54 said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
@dagrubster said in Wallabies vs All Blacks 3 (Perth):
Knees lift in the jump to gain height and used as protection. It’s pretty standard technique for players. You can see he arched backward just before he caught the ball which lead to his leg raising up.
Its the direct contact to the face that will see him get some time off. They won’t ignore that.
Which is a problem for us as I don’t think we won’t to be facing the kick boks with Dmac as fullback. JBs height would
Be invaluable along with his kicking from hand.Especially when you consider the games are in sub tropical Townsville. The Boks won’t want a fast paced game and will kick the crap out of it.
Mate, I think red card was fair enough, but will not be surprised if it seen as enough. There will be lawyers, and experts on dynamics of jumping etc to show why this or that happened, and I suspect the fact that Marika was moving into his space will have a lot to do with outcome, even Dave Rennie was adamant it was completely accidental in press conference etc and think just maybe the board will say that is enough punishment.
That would be reasonable IMHO
