Hillsborough

Catogrande

I've taken the time to re-read the Grauniad article posted by Siam. It is undeniably a powerful piece and you can feel the outpouring of emotion throughout. The sense of a great injustice is undeniable too. But why did the journalist feel the need to put in that bit about the Freemasons?
 
Quote "But what of the freemasons, those pantomime villains of the piece? In March 2015 David Duckenfield admitted what most of us had long suspected â€“ he had been a freemason since the mid-70s. Remarkably, he was promoted to grand master of his lodge a year after Hillsborough.
While the masonsâ€ role in the cover-up remains unclear â€“ if indeed they had one..." end quote.
 
So, nothing to do with the 'masons then? Why bring it up?

TeWaio

Margaret Aspinall CBE is an amazing woman. To lead that group in fighting for 27 years, and never giving up despite all the injustice along the way is just incredible. So many institutions / systems stacked against them for so long. To have such tenacity, after having lost a child in the tragedy. Beggars belief.

Siam

I was puzzled by that too Cato. 
Perhaps a justification for the rise of Duckenfield and a further attack on the police hierarchy? Perhaps clinging to the thought that if Mole was on duty the senseless waste of lives, living and dead, would have been avoided, and it can be traced back to nepotistic promotions. 
I don't know. I guess after 27 years of evidence appraisal even the most threadbare trace of causality gets explored. 
I been thinking about the images and details in that article all day though. That lady that lost 2 daughters 
Poor buggers. I hope this stuff this week helps them. I'm sure it does in some ways.

Siam

Didn't see your post TeWaio. Hear Hear!!

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576967" data-time="1462371583">I was puzzled by that too Cato. Perhaps a justification for the rise of Duckenfield and a further attack on the police hierarchy? Perhaps clinging to the thought that if Mole was on duty the senseless waste of lives, living and dead, would have been avoided, and it can be traced back to nepotistic promotions.</blockquote> That was my interpretation.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576967" data-time="1462371583">
<div>
I was puzzled by that too Cato. Perhaps a justification for the rise of Duckenfield and a further attack on the police hierarchy? Perhaps clinging to the thought that if Mole was on duty the senseless waste of lives, living and dead, would have been avoided, and it can be traced back to nepotistic promotions. 
I don't know. I guess after 27 years of evidence appraisal even the most threadbare trace of causality gets explored. 
I been thinking about the images and details in that article all day though. That lady that lost 2 daughters 
Poor buggers. I hope this stuff this week helps them. I'm sure it does in some ways.
</div>
</blockquote>
 I don't know. I would hope that is the case but it could also appear to be something of his own agenda. That would be a shame as it would degrade what is a great piece of journalism and in so many ways an incredible story of faith and tenacity in the face of overwhelming odds.
 
The Duckenfield question is one that I would very much like to hear the answer to, but I fear this is unlikely. There may well be some form of financial compensation that South Yorkshire Police have to cough up but in reality that just comes out of the public purse one way or another, it doesn't really harm the South Yorkshire Police. The protagonists are now all in heir dotage, so any personal culpability is unlikely to get sanctioned but I would dearly love to see those accountable for the continuing cover up brought to book. After all it can be argued that the cover up was still going on until very recently.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TeWaio" data-cid="576966" data-time="1462371180">
<div>
Margaret Aspinall CBE is an amazing woman. To lead that group in fighting for 27 years, and never giving up despite all the injustice along the way is just incredible. So many institutions / systems stacked against them for so long. To have such tenacity, after having lost a child in the tragedy. Beggars belief. 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Agree, She reminds me of Lawrence Dallaglios mother who campaigned for the truth after her daughters death <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/i-lost-my-daughter-my-friend-1113754.html'>http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/i-lost-my-daughter-my-friend-1113754.html</a>

da_grubster

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TeWaio" data-cid="576966" data-time="1462371180">
<div>
Margaret Aspinall CBE is an amazing woman. To lead that group in fighting for 27 years, and never giving up despite all the injustice along the way is just incredible. So many institutions / systems stacked against them for so long. To have such tenacity, after having lost a child in the tragedy. Beggars belief. 
</div>
</blockquote>
this always gets me when she is addressing the the crowd at a hillsborough memorial thanking Rafa Benitez. Rafa supported JFT96 hugely during his time in liverpool and this was the memorial the year after he left Liverpool

sparky

What a fantastic man and an amazing Dad Trevor Hicks is! One of England's very finest. 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/27/trevor-hicks-on-the-deaths-of-his-daughters-at-hillsborough-ther/'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/27/trevor-hicks-on-the-deaths-of-his-daughters-at-hillsborough-ther/</a>

Wurzel

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="576901" data-time="1462346632">
<div>
Stop being so precious. 
I'm not victim blaming but if you see those fans outside the ground as having no responsibility for their behavior at all then we obviously differ. 
Did their behavior cause deaths? No. Did it contribute to the situation, yes.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
Interesting that after 27 years of inquests, investigations and reports that you know what really went on. In fact the largest inquest in British legal history has just found the responsibility lies solely with the Police and David Duckenfield and - importantly - none of the blame lies with the football fans.
 
But if you know something different I'm sure David and the South Yorkshire police would love to hear from you.

Crazy Horse

Some of you guys are harsh. Are you deliberately not understanding what Crucial is getting at? There is no way in hell he is blaming the victims.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="576991" data-time="1462399597">
<div>
Some of you guys are harsh. Are you deliberately not understanding what Crucial is getting at? There is no way in hell he is blaming the victims.
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</blockquote>
 
He said the fans contributed to what happened. What is the difference between contributing to a tragedy and being at fault for tragedy?

Hooroo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="577004" data-time="1462401852">
<div>
He said the fans contributed to what happened. What is the difference between contributing to a tragedy and being at fault for tragedy?
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</blockquote>
 
I can throw a peice of wood on a fire to contribute but not be at fault for starting the fire.

Paekakboyz

as in unknowingly contributing? you could do that by being there, in line, adding to the crowd pressure without having an idea of what was going on in the stadium. I think that is the missing piece imo

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="577009" data-time="1462403423">
as in unknowingly contributing? you could do that by being there, in line, adding to the crowd pressure without having an idea of what was going on in the stadium. I think that is the missing piece imo</blockquote>
 
The people at the back of the crowd wouldn't have known there were people dying at the front , I can't imagine how they felt when they found out what happened .

Paekakboyz

Absolutely Jegga, and I think that was part of the (fully justified) collective anger at how the investigation went down. The people that made the mistakes got off while the crowd got blamed indirectly... or directly from some stuff I've read. But to be clear I'm not talking about Crucial's comments as the crowd did contribute by merely being there. But that is poles apart from being at fault or knowingly contributing etc.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="577009" data-time="1462403423">
<div>
as in unknowingly contributing? you could do that by being there, in line, adding to the crowd pressure without having an idea of what was going on in the stadium. I think that is the missing piece imo
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I don't see that it is fair to say the fans contributed to the tragedy just by being there. Obviously, if all 30,000 Liverpool fans had said 'fuck it' and went to the pub that day no one would have died. The fans contribution to the tragedy just arose from fans doing what they are supposed to do - go in and support their team. The point is that the fans who were in line would have had no reasonable expectation that they wanting to go into a football stadium would lead to the deaths of many people. How would anyone know at the time, with no power of hindsight, that they would turn around and walk away. I'm sure thousands of fans subsequently regretted going to the stadium but how were they to know at the time?

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="576991" data-time="1462399597">
<div>
Some of you guys are harsh. Are you deliberately not understanding what Crucial is getting at? There is no way in hell he is blaming the victims.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
He also brought up the mob mentality of football fans in his original post. While there was (and is) such a thing as hooliganism, it clearly played no role in the tragedy.
 
This tragedy would be repeated anywhere in the world if you had a sold out game, such a shitty stadium and such poor management from officials.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="577013" data-time="1462404262">
Absolutely Jegga, and I think that was part of the (fully justified) collective anger at how the investigation went down. The people that made the mistakes got off while the crowd got blamed indirectly... or directly from some stuff I've read. But to be clear I'm not talking about Crucial's comments as the crowd did contribute by merely being there. But that is poles apart from being at fault or knowingly contributing etc.</blockquote>
 
I was at concert at the super top in the height of summer and when the support act came out everyone surged forward as they normally do. Didn't think too much of it , it was uncomfortable but I thought it would settle down. The support act had their plug pulled after one song and then I saw unconscious people being hauled over the barrier and someone came out and said we all had to move back or they were cancelling the whole thing . Obviously it's not exactly the same situation but if your back in a crowd and everyone behind you is pushing there's not a hell of a lot you can do.

Paekakboyz

Hydro, pretty sure we are on the same page - I was trying to tease out what I think Crucial was trying to get across. I disagree with his point about mob mentality and fully agree with you that this sort of thing could happen at any number of stadia if people fuck up the crowd management side of things.

The Silver Fern

Hillsborough