Stadium of Canterbury
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@shark said in Stadium of Canterbury:
FBS still has tremendous novelty value and of course it has its benefits, but isn't a good example of a roofed stadium. It's essentially three separate stands with a plastic canopy.
The concept art for the Christchurch MUA shows a much more complete and aesthetically pleasing design, but it'll probably end up being a facsimile of FBS in order to end up with anything serviceable for the pool of cash still available.
What was wrong with a facsimile of FBS anyway? I'm sure that some lessons/improvements would have come with the package and there is scope to increase capacity at build time anyway.
Everyone wants to reinvent all the time and incur costs instead of following an existing model.With the idea of adding a roof later, it has to be well designed with that in mind instead of a 'we will solve that if required' approach. See the Caketin as an example.It was always touted that when technology was available and cheaper a roof would be an option. The cheaper part never comes along with the better.
@crucial yes, definitely, not speculative, actually design the roof with current technology, do what parts need to be done now, hopefully a minimal amount like just foundations and then if something new/cheaper/fancier comes around its can be a plus
I always thought the stands at either ed of FSB could easily have been bigger to raise the capacity for chch
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@nzzp It would cost more than not future proofing for sure but would have to be cheaper than the full thing...just purely the cost of the roof structure itself plus the labour for building it, for Forsyth barr the roof is almost a free standing structure, the huge columns in the corners and the beam across the front of the main stand could all be removed to ground level i believe
I thin it becomes more of an issue is all that structure needs to be hidden in the stand structure itself, if you accept it can be seen then it becomes more simple
@kiwiwomble said in Stadium of Canterbury:
@nzzp It would cost more than not future proofing for sure but would have to be cheaper than the full thing...just purely the cost of the roof structure itself plus the labour for building it
I really don't think it's that simple.
The design of a structure, vs a structure that has to support another structure is fundamentally different. If you design to support a roof, the actual roof cost will be pretty small - it's all of the design and construction costs associated with the support structures (stands) that is expensive. Once you've put all that in, the incremental cost for the roof isn't much -- and in some ways you should just build it so that if seismic/engineering codes change you don't get caught!
I also think Forsyth Barr is a tremendous stadium. Budget, but damn good. Capacity 30k; you could probably increase that to 35/40 with a bit of extra span and some more work at each end. That's a good capacity for Christchurch.
One thing is for sure - the pool of money is now fixed, but the costs are soaring. It's really depressing.
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@kiwiwomble said in Stadium of Canterbury:
@nzzp It would cost more than not future proofing for sure but would have to be cheaper than the full thing...just purely the cost of the roof structure itself plus the labour for building it
I really don't think it's that simple.
The design of a structure, vs a structure that has to support another structure is fundamentally different. If you design to support a roof, the actual roof cost will be pretty small - it's all of the design and construction costs associated with the support structures (stands) that is expensive. Once you've put all that in, the incremental cost for the roof isn't much -- and in some ways you should just build it so that if seismic/engineering codes change you don't get caught!
I also think Forsyth Barr is a tremendous stadium. Budget, but damn good. Capacity 30k; you could probably increase that to 35/40 with a bit of extra span and some more work at each end. That's a good capacity for Christchurch.
One thing is for sure - the pool of money is now fixed, but the costs are soaring. It's really depressing.
@nzzp said in Stadium of Canterbury:
@kiwiwomble said in Stadium of Canterbury:
@nzzp It would cost more than not future proofing for sure but would have to be cheaper than the full thing...just purely the cost of the roof structure itself plus the labour for building it
I really don't think it's that simple.
The design of a structure, vs a structure that has to support another structure is fundamentally different. If you design to support a roof, the actual roof cost will be pretty small - it's all of the design and construction costs associated with the support structures (stands) that is expensive. Once you've put all that in, the incremental cost for the roof isn't much -- and in some ways you should just build it so that if seismic/engineering codes change you don't get caught!
I also think Forsyth Barr is a tremendous stadium. Budget, but damn good. Capacity 30k; you could probably increase that to 35/40 with a bit of extra span and some more work at each end. That's a good capacity for Christchurch.
One thing is for sure - the pool of money is now fixed, but the costs are soaring. It's really depressing.
Hindsight is particularly damning, but I feel like the contingency planning was lacking somewhere.
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@kiwiwomble said in Stadium of Canterbury:
@nzzp It would cost more than not future proofing for sure but would have to be cheaper than the full thing...just purely the cost of the roof structure itself plus the labour for building it
I really don't think it's that simple.
The design of a structure, vs a structure that has to support another structure is fundamentally different. If you design to support a roof, the actual roof cost will be pretty small - it's all of the design and construction costs associated with the support structures (stands) that is expensive. Once you've put all that in, the incremental cost for the roof isn't much -- and in some ways you should just build it so that if seismic/engineering codes change you don't get caught!
I also think Forsyth Barr is a tremendous stadium. Budget, but damn good. Capacity 30k; you could probably increase that to 35/40 with a bit of extra span and some more work at each end. That's a good capacity for Christchurch.
One thing is for sure - the pool of money is now fixed, but the costs are soaring. It's really depressing.
@nzzp i dont think its fundamentally different, we're still in the same realm, different degrees of structural engineering
yes, if you go for a design like chch is touting where the roof seems completely integrated to the stand structures then yes, there will only be a smaller saving..still 10's of millions i imagine though, but the example i gave with FSB where almost everything associated with the roof structure above ground could be removed, as shark said its really 4 stand and a roof all stuck together....i dont see how that cant be significantly cheaper, the savings really depend on how complicated they want to make things
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@nzzp i dont think its fundamentally different, we're still in the same realm, different degrees of structural engineering
yes, if you go for a design like chch is touting where the roof seems completely integrated to the stand structures then yes, there will only be a smaller saving..still 10's of millions i imagine though, but the example i gave with FSB where almost everything associated with the roof structure above ground could be removed, as shark said its really 4 stand and a roof all stuck together....i dont see how that cant be significantly cheaper, the savings really depend on how complicated they want to make things
@kiwiwomble said in Stadium of Canterbury:
@nzzp i dont think its fundamentally different, we're still in the same realm, different degrees of structural engineering
agree - but we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's at all as simple as you indicate - and the interaction with stands, cladding, etc all have conseqeunces.
Dunedin innovated with the plastic as well, to allow grass to grow. That was huge - a massive cost saver compared to roofed stadia that need turf attention.
anyhoo, it is what it is
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@kiwiwomble said in Stadium of Canterbury:
@nzzp i dont think its fundamentally different, we're still in the same realm, different degrees of structural engineering
agree - but we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's at all as simple as you indicate - and the interaction with stands, cladding, etc all have conseqeunces.
Dunedin innovated with the plastic as well, to allow grass to grow. That was huge - a massive cost saver compared to roofed stadia that need turf attention.
anyhoo, it is what it is
@nzzp im not saying it would be the same as no roof at all, but 20% cheaper would still be 20% cheaper and may have been enough to get it out of the ground years ago
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Just cancel it. The current ground is good enough for Canterbury. The Crusaders should move to their new power base of Nelson
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@booboo so great they have made it to the preliminary design phase!
I hear good things take time!
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looks amazing, love the fancy screen/beam combo
@kiwiwomble said in Stadium of Canterbury:
looks amazing, love the fancy screen/beam combo
Mini's can look nice too.
That is desperately small for Canterbury. I can see what @shark is banging on about.
Waikato stadium would be bigger wouldn't it? With half the population?
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@kiwiwomble said in Stadium of Canterbury:
looks amazing, love the fancy screen/beam combo
Mini's can look nice too.
That is desperately small for Canterbury. I can see what @shark is banging on about.
Waikato stadium would be bigger wouldn't it? With half the population?
what configuration was settled on @shark ? i have honestly forgotten, was it the 30k with some room for temp?
@Hooroo id actually be interested in "rugby" populations of the two...too lazy to do the research, the over all city may be bigger but are there more registered players say, or what are the average attendances? that is of course skewed now with so long in the temp stadium, people put off and i think less people every go to watch then they did a decade ago
As i say in the 7 years i lived in chch i never struggled to buy i ticket to a rugby match
I do look at FSB and thing its a great stadium....but it does look bad mostly empty
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what configuration was settled on @shark ? i have honestly forgotten, was it the 30k with some room for temp?
@Hooroo id actually be interested in "rugby" populations of the two...too lazy to do the research, the over all city may be bigger but are there more registered players say, or what are the average attendances? that is of course skewed now with so long in the temp stadium, people put off and i think less people every go to watch then they did a decade ago
As i say in the 7 years i lived in chch i never struggled to buy i ticket to a rugby match
I do look at FSB and thing its a great stadium....but it does look bad mostly empty
@kiwiwomble said in Stadium of Canterbury:
what configuration was settled on @shark ? i have honestly forgotten, was it the 30k with some room for temp?
@Hooroo id actually be interested in "rugby" populations of the two...too lazy to do the research, the over all city may be bigger but are there more registered players say, or what are the average attendances? that is of course skewed now with so long in the temp stadium, people put off and i think less people every go to watch then they did a decade ago
As i say in the 7 years i lived in chch i never struggled to buy i ticket to a rugby match
That's because Ponamu stadium was massive. That was a proper stadium.
My misses isn't a registered rugby player nor has she ever been and she goes to rugby matches.
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@kiwiwomble said in Stadium of Canterbury:
what configuration was settled on @shark ? i have honestly forgotten, was it the 30k with some room for temp?
@Hooroo id actually be interested in "rugby" populations of the two...too lazy to do the research, the over all city may be bigger but are there more registered players say, or what are the average attendances? that is of course skewed now with so long in the temp stadium, people put off and i think less people every go to watch then they did a decade ago
As i say in the 7 years i lived in chch i never struggled to buy i ticket to a rugby match
That's because Ponamu stadium was massive. That was a proper stadium.
My misses isn't a registered rugby player nor has she ever been and she goes to rugby matches.
@hooroo oh no, i was meaning the current temp one, i actually did the construction set out for it so was always keen to get down there and never had issues, went to AB's and when the highlander came up
obviously not a silver bullet for understanding the level of interest but i think at a higher level it would be unusual to have a huge and disproportionate number of spectators to players in an area
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@shark said in Stadium of Canterbury:
FBS still has tremendous novelty value and of course it has its benefits, but isn't a good example of a roofed stadium. It's essentially three separate stands with a plastic canopy.
The concept art for the Christchurch MUA shows a much more complete and aesthetically pleasing design, but it'll probably end up being a facsimile of FBS in order to end up with anything serviceable for the pool of cash still available.
What was wrong with a facsimile of FBS anyway? I'm sure that some lessons/improvements would have come with the package and there is scope to increase capacity at build time anyway.
Everyone wants to reinvent all the time and incur costs instead of following an existing model.With the idea of adding a roof later, it has to be well designed with that in mind instead of a 'we will solve that if required' approach. See the Caketin as an example.It was always touted that when technology was available and cheaper a roof would be an option. The cheaper part never comes along with the better.
@crucial said in Stadium of Canterbury:
@shark said in Stadium of Canterbury:
FBS still has tremendous novelty value and of course it has its benefits, but isn't a good example of a roofed stadium. It's essentially three separate stands with a plastic canopy.
The concept art for the Christchurch MUA shows a much more complete and aesthetically pleasing design, but it'll probably end up being a facsimile of FBS in order to end up with anything serviceable for the pool of cash still available.
What was wrong with a facsimile of FBS anyway? I'm sure that some lessons/improvements would have come with the package and there is scope to increase capacity at build time anyway.
Everyone wants to reinvent all the time and incur costs instead of following an existing model.With the idea of adding a roof later, it has to be well designed with that in mind instead of a 'we will solve that if required' approach. See the Caketin as an example.It was always touted that when technology was available and cheaper a roof would be an option. The cheaper part never comes along with the better.
The caketin was never touted as having a roof as a later option. You are mis-remembering.
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@crucial said in Stadium of Canterbury:
@shark said in Stadium of Canterbury:
FBS still has tremendous novelty value and of course it has its benefits, but isn't a good example of a roofed stadium. It's essentially three separate stands with a plastic canopy.
The concept art for the Christchurch MUA shows a much more complete and aesthetically pleasing design, but it'll probably end up being a facsimile of FBS in order to end up with anything serviceable for the pool of cash still available.
What was wrong with a facsimile of FBS anyway? I'm sure that some lessons/improvements would have come with the package and there is scope to increase capacity at build time anyway.
Everyone wants to reinvent all the time and incur costs instead of following an existing model.With the idea of adding a roof later, it has to be well designed with that in mind instead of a 'we will solve that if required' approach. See the Caketin as an example.It was always touted that when technology was available and cheaper a roof would be an option. The cheaper part never comes along with the better.
The caketin was never touted as having a roof as a later option. You are mis-remembering.
@rapido first google search
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/10640357/Stadium-price-tag-through-the-roof
I do understand this part
"The reason for the costings being as high as they are is, structurally, the stadium was never built to take a roof. So to a large extent you are building a stadium over a stadium in terms of structural capability."
..but the reason the report was even done was on the back of the council saying for ages that they would investigate the possibility down the track. I have no idea if that was empty noises which the had to pay money to then wipe away but I do remember the noises.
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@rapido first google search
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/10640357/Stadium-price-tag-through-the-roof
I do understand this part
"The reason for the costings being as high as they are is, structurally, the stadium was never built to take a roof. So to a large extent you are building a stadium over a stadium in terms of structural capability."
..but the reason the report was even done was on the back of the council saying for ages that they would investigate the possibility down the track. I have no idea if that was empty noises which the had to pay money to then wipe away but I do remember the noises.
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@crucial
That's 15 years after it was built!In the 1990s when this was being designed and built no one was touting it as being able to be roofed at a later date.
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@crucial said in Stadium of Canterbury:
@shark said in Stadium of Canterbury:
FBS still has tremendous novelty value and of course it has its benefits, but isn't a good example of a roofed stadium. It's essentially three separate stands with a plastic canopy.
The concept art for the Christchurch MUA shows a much more complete and aesthetically pleasing design, but it'll probably end up being a facsimile of FBS in order to end up with anything serviceable for the pool of cash still available.
What was wrong with a facsimile of FBS anyway? I'm sure that some lessons/improvements would have come with the package and there is scope to increase capacity at build time anyway.
Everyone wants to reinvent all the time and incur costs instead of following an existing model.With the idea of adding a roof later, it has to be well designed with that in mind instead of a 'we will solve that if required' approach. See the Caketin as an example.It was always touted that when technology was available and cheaper a roof would be an option. The cheaper part never comes along with the better.
The caketin was never touted as having a roof as a later option. You are mis-remembering.
This post is deleted!
