-
-
@catogrande said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
I like the term Futch. It seems almost onomatopoeiac.
Do I now go to Sapphic hell?
I just looked up Sapphic hell in the dictionary. Hannah Gadsby’s picture is beside it.
Edit. To be clear, I don’t care that she or anyone else is lesbian. I just don’t like her “comedy”
-
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter Gender identity is hardly a new thing, even? ... gender labels on a binary spectrum have existed at least since the Lesbian movement of the 60-70s e.g. from "High Femme" to "Stone Butch" (fwiw Gender Theory as an academic field of study is still rooted in the feminist movement I believe)
Well yeah, all men and women display various masculine and feminine traits. Some of those traits are more typical among males, others more typical among females, but there is lots of overlap between the sexes. Hence your personality being influenced by, but not determined by your sex.
All the trans movement does is put all of the focus on whether you display typically male or female traits, when that shouldn't matter. We should be moving towards a society that doesn't judge people based on those traits, but we are going in the opposite direction. And what is beyond the pale is telling gender atypical kids that they are actually the opposite sex, which is a completely fucking bonkers thing to say to a child.
I maintain that all of these new "gender identities" are just made up nonsense (non-binary? Sorry what?) for people that want to feel special/unique.
-
@jc said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@catogrande said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
I like the term Futch. It seems almost onomatopoeiac.
Do I now go to Sapphic hell?
I just looked up Sapphic hell in the dictionary. Hannah Gadsby’s picture is beside it.
Edit. To be clear, I don’t care that she or anyone else is lesbian. I just don’t like her “comedy”
Nice try but I not going to google her image, nor watch any of her comedy on you tube. I shall watch some other related stuff.
-
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter Gender identity is hardly a new thing, even? ... gender labels on a binary spectrum have existed at least since the Lesbian movement of the 60-70s e.g. from "High Femme" to "Stone Butch" (fwiw Gender Theory as an academic field of study is still rooted in the feminist movement I believe)
Well that infographic isn't ridiculous at all.
-
@no-quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter Gender identity is hardly a new thing, even? ... gender labels on a binary spectrum have existed at least since the Lesbian movement of the 60-70s e.g. from "High Femme" to "Stone Butch" (fwiw Gender Theory as an academic field of study is still rooted in the feminist movement I believe)
Well yeah, all men and women display various masculine and feminine traits. Some of those traits are more typical among males, others more typical among females, but there is lots of overlap between the sexes. Hence your personality being influenced by, but not determined by your sex.
All the trans movement does is put all of the focus on whether you display typically male or female traits, when that shouldn't matter. We should be moving towards a society that doesn't judge people based on those traits, but we are going in the opposite direction. And what is beyond the pale is telling gender atypical kids that they are actually the opposite sex, which is a completely fucking bonkers thing to say to a child.
I maintain that all of these new "gender identities" are just made up nonsense (non-binary? Sorry what?) for people that want to feel special/unique.
I see the (very) detailed identities of non-binary (or Lesbian for that matter) people as being more for the LGBTQ+ community, so it doesn't worry me that much
The only impact I see personaly (what am I missing? - are there others?) is the sometimes unintelligible pronouns gaining fashion, which I'll use out of politeness if I know what they are
This exact same discussion and marginalisation occured at the time of the lesbian butch/femme identities later (mainly in the 1980s, I think) but mainly within the feminist movement - i.e. as a society we should be aiming to remove rather than reinforce our gender stereotypes ... no disagreement from me that it shouldn't matter
Practically on gender, there's a huge tension and balance needed between counselling/talking therapy that is "affirmative" vs. a "safe space for exploration" ... it's playing out in the UK in a legislative consultation on making conversion therapy illegal (sexuality and gender-identy) in the UK. Will be interesting to see how this plays out over here in the next few months!!
-
@antipodean said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter Gender identity is hardly a new thing, even? ... gender labels on a binary spectrum have existed at least since the Lesbian movement of the 60-70s e.g. from "High Femme" to "Stone Butch" (fwiw Gender Theory as an academic field of study is still rooted in the feminist movement I believe)
Well that infographic isn't ridiculous at all.
Why "ridiculous"? It's an example of LGBTQ language specific to lesbians from the '60s onwards ... and the world didn't stop turning because around then they started inventing detailed terms for lesbian identities back then? And yes for sure, it DID also generate similar moral outrage for a period of time too ...
"Stone butch lesbian" identifies both sex and core sexuality (lesbian) and gender expression/further details on sexuality (stone butch). It serves the exact same purpose as someone T-Q who chooses to identify as (say) a "pansexual demifluidfluxgirl"
I don't see how "we" as a wider society can or imho should police how LGBTQ identity language evolves over time ... even if we wanted to or were able to (we can't). Language isn't owned, if a minority really feel they need this kind of detail to identify or describe attraction, not for me to judge unless it really affects me
However my main point was that it's simply not a new thing
-
@L_n_P I certainly don't police other people's language, but I also don't have to take it seriously either. When it comes to gender/sex the only meaningful distinction I am interested in is male and female, as we (rightly) have laws that offer increased protection to females in various areas of society, and in the sporting world females are given a chance to compete by excluding biological males otherwise it is simply not fair. Both of those aspects are under attack from the modern day trans movement so people are rightly pushing back against it, and it has nothing to do with a so called "moral panic".
-
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter Gender identity is hardly a new thing, even? ... gender labels on a binary spectrum have existed at least since the Lesbian movement of the 60-70s e.g. from "High Femme" to "Stone Butch" (fwiw Gender Theory as an academic field of study is still rooted in the feminist movement I believe)
High femme sounds attractive.
Stone butch, not so much.
That's my contribution to this discussion. -
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Why "ridiculous"?
I guess I'm the only person who finds it absurd they've decided on a scale for lesbians and can discern between levels 2, 3 and 4 for a femme lesbian.
-
@antipodean said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Why "ridiculous"?
I guess I'm the only person who finds it absurd they've decided on a scale for lesbians and can discern between levels 2, 3 and 4 for a femme lesbian.
Fair comment - I didn't even notice the numeric scale underneath it!
Quick google ... there are versions with Japanese anime, or Star Trek female characters instead?
-
@antipodean lol that makes me think of 'pink' versus fuschia, rose, light pink, deep pink, dark pink, etc, etc
-
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@antipodean said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter Gender identity is hardly a new thing, even? ... gender labels on a binary spectrum have existed at least since the Lesbian movement of the 60-70s e.g. from "High Femme" to "Stone Butch" (fwiw Gender Theory as an academic field of study is still rooted in the feminist movement I believe)
Well that infographic isn't ridiculous at all.
Why "ridiculous"? It's an example of LGBTQ language specific to lesbians from the '60s onwards ... and the world didn't stop turning because around then they started inventing detailed terms for lesbian identities back then? And yes for sure, it DID also generate similar moral outrage for a period of time too ...
I think it's a bit disingenuous comparing this infographic to what’s currently happening with trans activism. Back in the day the only people who really took offence to this was the pearl-clutchers who took offence to everything. I certainly didn’t care if lesbians had a seat at the table because really all they were asking for was room. Giving gay people and lesbians equality in law ultimately cost us nothing except a broadening of our minds. Asking everyone else simply not to discriminate was an eminently reasonable position.
That’s not the same with the trans movement. Trans people have, in most western societies, the same protection against discrimination that everyone else has. The same protection gay people fought for already protects trans people. Most reasonable people have no problem with that at all. Where we seem to have disagreement is that some of the additional goals of the trans movement may have profound impacts on the rights of others but we don’t appear to be able to discuss those and come to a consensus because the discussion itself has been classed as transphobic. The impact on female sports is one such area.
-
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@antipodean said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Why "ridiculous"?
I guess I'm the only person who finds it absurd they've decided on a scale for lesbians and can discern between levels 2, 3 and 4 for a femme lesbian.
Fair comment - I didn't even notice the numeric scale underneath it!
Quick google ... there are versions with Japanese anime, or Star Trek female characters instead?
Wouldn't know mate. As an attractive young man I wasn't in to either.
-
@jc said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@antipodean said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@no-quarter Gender identity is hardly a new thing, even? ... gender labels on a binary spectrum have existed at least since the Lesbian movement of the 60-70s e.g. from "High Femme" to "Stone Butch" (fwiw Gender Theory as an academic field of study is still rooted in the feminist movement I believe)
Well that infographic isn't ridiculous at all.
Why "ridiculous"? It's an example of LGBTQ language specific to lesbians from the '60s onwards ... and the world didn't stop turning because around then they started inventing detailed terms for lesbian identities back then? And yes for sure, it DID also generate similar moral outrage for a period of time too ...
I think it's a bit disingenuous comparing this infographic to what’s currently happening with trans activism. Back in the day the only people who really took offence to this was the pearl-clutchers who took offence to everything. I certainly didn’t care if lesbians had a seat at the table because really all they were asking for was room. Giving gay people and lesbians equality in law ultimately cost us nothing except a broadening of our minds. Asking everyone else simply not to discriminate was an eminently reasonable position.
That’s not the same with the trans movement. Trans people have, in most western societies, the same protection against discrimination that everyone else has. The same protection gay people fought for already protects trans people. Most reasonable people have no problem with that at all. Where we seem to have disagreement is that some of the additional goals of the trans movement may have profound impacts on the rights of others but we don’t appear to be able to discuss those and come to a consensus because the discussion itself has been classed as transphobic. The impact on female sports is one such area.
It's a bit disingenous to say I broadened the discussion into wider concerns on trans activism where I was simply responding to point out how detailed gender identies can be seen going back to the 1960s if not before - they're hardly a new thing
The "moral outrage" I was refering to was the backlash to the butch-femme identities which (I should have detailed it better I agree, it wasn't my main focus) happened mainly within the feminist movement from the 70s on. They were seen as reinforcing both gender and heteronormative stereotypes, rather than helping to remove them.
For professional reasons I actually do follow UK equalities legislation i.e. the EA 2010, various protected characteristics in UK law - age, race, sexual orientation, disability, gender reassignment etc and how they are balanced in real life via ever-growing case law. The ongoing "Gay Cake" case for example which was raised up to the ECHR, but who just rejected hearing it, this something I need to read up on for example
Anyway for this kind of reason I'm genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts/examples of "additional goals of the trans movement may have profound impacts on the rights of others ... The impact on female sports is one such area".
And totally agree here btw, that sport is "additional"
Certainly to my knowledge in the UK - first under the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and then the far broader Equalities Act 2010 (s195) trans people i.e. with "gender reassignment" have always been able to be excluded from sport for reasons of "Fair play" or "The safety of competitors". No matter what trans activists may say, not sure how it can be transphobic to debate this, given it's enshrined in current UK law as not being a human right in the area of sport?
So UK law I know ... I don't know the current local Human Rights law situation on "Trans Sport" in NZ, US, Canada, Oz, across Europe etc ... happy to learn if others can inform me more
Do you see other/upcoming examples of "additional goals" of the trans movement i.e. similar to sport?
-
Trans Swimming: Dail Mail > Lia Thomas (M2F) is CRUSHED twice by Iszac Henig (F2M)
The Daily Maily "is what it is" - so I was surprised as this article is actually quite interesting
Reading it though, left me confused on how they want to generate any moral outrage & clickbait quota via Iszac Henig ... who is reported as in-transition F2M, but HASN'T actually even started hormones (i.e. testosterone) at all yet.
Any or all of these?- Outrage: F2M trans swimmer dares to not feel appropriate shame: shows scars from breast removal, omg!
- Outrage: F2M trans swimmer gains competitive advantage from breast removal op, omg!
- Outrage: F2M people actually exist and are real, look!
In terms of actual sporting competitiveness / fairness I'm not sure I can see a problem though with Iszac?
-
-
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
In terms of actual sporting competitiveness / fairness I'm not sure I can see a problem though with Iszac?
Iszac wants to be a male, identifies as a male and would likely be offended if called a female - yet, oh how convenient, decides he is a female when it comes to competing in a race he wants to win. Bloody nice to be able to have it both ways.
The whole fuckin thing is clown world to the average person with any common sense. That's why the Mail posted it.
-
@frank said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@l_n_p said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
In terms of actual sporting competitiveness / fairness I'm not sure I can see a problem though with Iszac?
Iszac wants to be a male, identifies as a male and would likely be offended if called a female - yet, oh how convenient, decides he is a female when it comes to competing in a race he wants to win. Bloody nice to be able to have it both ways.
The whole fuckin thing is clown world to the average person with any common sense. That's why the Mail posted it.
I don’t see the issue there, it can’t be a problem both ways.
They identify as male but compete as a female (given they are a female).
If hormones were involved (i.e., as part of the transitioning process), my opinion would change.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
?
