Best League to Union convert

pukunui

It's a hard topic unless you have clearly defined what make a player a great/the best. Two things that IMO are quite different. Being "best" to me means it's only based on performances and standing when compared with other players in similar positions/eras.
However greatest to me would take into account performance, standing vs other players in the position/era, longevity and achievements ie. trophies.
 
Pretty clear on here that at least since 2000 the top four in no particular order are Robinson, Thorn, SBW and Folau. Others like Sailor, Tuqiri, Roger etc are probably sit a rung down from these guys for various reasons.
 
Pretty hard to compare them if basing it on the above definition of "best" because only Robinson and Folau play similar positions.
 
In terms of 'Greatness' I would say the following.
 
SBW: His performances have been of high standard despite a slow start. His longevity probably suffers because he has been in and out of the game. He has plenty of High achievements 2xRWCs a super title, a super final, NPC title? Lots of Bledisloes and a RC or two. However he would be marked down again for the fact that he hasn't been able to surpass Nonu for that 12 jersey. Has the chance to really push his spot over the next couple of years with the lions then another RWC. He may already qualify as the most "successful" convert in terms of trophies.
 
Folau: I don't rate him as highly as some. He has has some good performances and has been Australias top 15 for a fair while now. However he would only have 1x RC and 1x Super title to his name and some individual medals. He was good against the Lions however was a complete flop in last years RWC. Injury or no injury that was the big stage where "great" players secure a legacy. HAs never won a Bledisloe either which is the second biggest trophy that Aus and NZ play for. As for SBW he has plenty of time to push himself up the ladder.
 
Robinson: Seemed to be around for a while and has the RWC and probably a few other trophies 6n? to his name. Seemed to be one of the better outside backs running around, particularly in the NH. Can't really remember too much about him to really mark him down much.
 
Thorn: Would probably number 1 for me. Had the longevity, played as a forward which is a harder transition from League, Has a RWC, Bledisloes, RCs and a super title and had success in Europe after leaving NZ. Really was a key player for the ABs later in his career.
 
 
All of this of course doesn't take into account their league careers but at least Thron, SBW and Folau had pretty successful careers before league. Im sure Robinson was the same.

SabalomG

it would be interesting if someone did compile a list of each trophy/accolade they each received. Thorn would probably win with all his Bledisloes and Tri Nations.

barbarian

Always a bit hard to rank players solely on what trophies they have won. 
 
SBW has won two World Cups, but how much did he really contribute to these victories? As opposed to a guy like Folau who played the full 80 as a key man in the losing side.
 
Obviously Thorn is the undisputed champion for trophies won, and was a key player in every side. But SBW has a similar pedigree without being nearly as central (for the ABs anyway).

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="barbarian" data-cid="585392" data-time="1465256161">
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SBW has won two World Cups, but how much did he really contribute to these victories? As opposed to a guy like Folau who played the full 80 as a key man in the losing side.
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You've obviously blocked out the second half of the 2015 final out of your mind and fair enough too.
 
I do agree with the general premise about judging by trophies however.

SabalomG

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="barbarian" data-cid="585392" data-time="1465256161">
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 As opposed to a guy like Folau who played the full 80 as a key man in the losing side.
 
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Did Folau even do anything of note in the final?

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Sabalom Glitz" data-cid="585400" data-time="1465259060">
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Did Folau even do anything of note in the final?
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He did a phenomenal '99 Jeff Wilson impression in defense if you watched carefully (easy to miss as often wasn't in frame when required). Ironically worst lapse was on the Nonu try SBW set up pretty much single handedly in successive phases.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="585393" data-time="1465256262">
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You've obviously blocked out the second half of the 2015 final out of your mind and fair enough too.
 
I do agree with the general premise about judging by trophies however.
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Based solely on that Jonah and Cully were journeymen at best.

MajorRage

You can't judge rugby players on trophies. It's a team sport - some of the greatest players have never won major trophies, and some of the weaker ones have.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="585404" data-time="1465260428">
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He did a phenomenal '99 Jeff Wilson impression in defense if you watched carefully (easy to miss as often wasn't in frame when required). Ironically worst lapse was on the Nonu try SBW set up pretty much single handedly in successive phases.
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"set up"
 
"Heres the ball, on halfway, in heavy traffic, only 4 to beat. Its a walk in mate"
 
It reminds me of David Kirk setting up Kirwan v Italy in 87
 
SBW was very good in that half, but I'm not sure he was quite as good as the rose tinted lenses might suggest.

kiwiinmelb

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="585663" data-time="1465376496">
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"set up"
 
"Heres the ball, on halfway, in heavy traffic, only 4 to beat. Its a walk in mate"
 
It reminds me of David Kirk setting up Kirwan v Italy in 87
 
SBW was very good in that half, but I'm not sure he was quite as good as the rose tinted lenses might suggest. 
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Yeah ive watched that try a few times and thought that , yes nice pass , but Nonu still had a shitload to do by himself

MN5

I remember Merhts making jokes during an interview some years back about how he never got credit for setting up Jonahs awesome try in the 99 pool game against England. "All Jonah did was beat three guys, I was the one who made the awesome pass..." or something along those lines.
 
But SBW is like Origin......everything he does is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better cos it's him that did it.

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="585798" data-time="1465431684">
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I remember Merhts making jokes during an interview some years back about how he never got credit for setting up Jonahs awesome try in the 99 pool game against England. "All Jonah did was beat three guys, I was the one who made the awesome pass..." or something along those lines.
 
But SBW is like Origin......everything he does is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better cos it's him that did it.
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Hardly fair. SBW gave the offload to NMS which put the Aussie defence going backwards. He then took the ball on the very next play when the defence was less organised, took out 3 defenders and offloaded the ball to Nonu.
 
He played a huge part in setting that up, and deserves the credit he gets for setting up that play.

taniwharugby

SBW is awesome cos he is SBW: SBW is over rated cos he's SBW

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="585591" data-time="1465345535">
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Based solely on that Jonah and Cully were journeymen at best.
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Sorry I should have said I agreed with barbarians premise - that trophies don't necessarily mean greatness. The 1995 side for me is still the best we've sent to a RWC for example.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="585805" data-time="1465433284">
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Hardly fair. SBW gave the offload to NMS which put the Aussie defence going backwards. He then took the ball on the very next play when the defence was less organised, took out 3 defenders and offloaded the ball to Nonu.
 
He played a huge part in setting that up, and deserves the credit he gets for setting up that play.
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Nonu deserves a lot of credit. But creating chances in RWC finals are not easy - scoring them from general play is even tougher. How far SBW opened the window for Nonu is up for debate but it was a shitload wider than almost any other playmaker has been able to in past RWC finals.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="585828" data-time="1465438978">
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Nonu deserves a lot of credit. But creating chances in RWC finals are not easy - scoring them from general play is even tougher. How far SBW opened the window for Nonu is up for debate but it was a shitload wider than almost any other playmaker has been able to in past RWC finals.
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SBW did very well but it was Nonu's play that was truly outstanding.

The Silver Fern

Best League to Union convert