New Zealand under 20

Bovidae

Kautai was brought into the U20s after the Aust tour because he is a strong scrummager. To be fair, the scrum is reasonably stable when he is at TH. The problem is on the other side, and the reserve props who are even worse. Fidow was a huge step down at TH when he came on.
 
NZ has never had a dominant scrum at U20 level, but it's been serviceable.

Higgins

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bovidae" data-cid="586916" data-time="1465689288">
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 Fidow was a huge step down at TH when he came on.
 
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Got it in one. Those of us, obviously not connected to the fishheads that pick teams and award contracts, that have seen him play for his Scots College team the last year or so have known that for a fair (or perhaps fear would be a more apt spelling) while.

Steven Harris

Just want to throw in a few thoughts,i was very fortunate to be in australia recently when the NZ unders 20s played 2 x tests at Bond University on the Gold Coast,i also saw them play the Blues development team before they had left for their 2 x tests in Australia.i was very much under the impression this team would struggle,they strugggled at both set piece lineout and scrum,not being smart after the fact,but i have heard from many coaches over the years,while we have awesomely talented forwards,we dont always have size,many of the Northern Hemisphere teams along with South Africa,have very big packs,we have been fortunate in the past to have very good play makers in positions and not to mention some outstading loose foward trios,last year fopr example,we had Blake Gibson,Mitchell Karpick and Akira Ioane,in the NZ team that won that tournament last year.
 
Akira Ioane was one man recking ball machine.we also had some very classy midfielders in Vince Aso and Jack Goodhue,Geoff Cridge,their were several guys who had played at ITM cup level,whilst their are a some guys that a part of super rugby squads,Trainor,Stephenson and Nock to name a few,they are a very inexperienced teams,in terms of having guys that have played athat higher level.

Toddy

I did watch a 'Fidow' video on Facebook a couple of weeks ago. I just assumed he was a fat 2nd 5. He probably wishes that was the case after his repeated attempts to stand up and cuddle the Irish prop.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Steven Harris" data-cid="586923" data-time="1465690267">
<div>
Just want to throw in a few thoughts,i was very fortunate to be in australia recently when the NZ unders 20s played 2 x tests at Bond University on the Gold Coast,i also saw them play the Blues development team before they had left for their 2 x tests in Australia.i was very much under the impression this team would struggle,they strugggled at both set piece lineout and scrum,not being smart after the fact,but i have heard from many coaches over the years,while we have awesomely talented forwards,we dont always have size,many of the Northern Hemisphere teams along with South Africa,have very big packs,we have been fortunate in the past to have very good play makers in positions and not to mention some outstading loose foward trios,last year fopr example,we had Blake Gibson,Mitchell Karpick and Akira Ioane,in the NZ team that won that tournament last year.
 
Akira Ioane was one man recking ball machine.we also had some very classy midfielders in Vince Aso and Jack Goodhue,Geoff Cridge,their were several guys who had played at ITM cup level,whilst their are a some guys that a part of super rugby squads,Trainor,Stephenson and Nock to name a few,they are a very inexperienced teams,in terms of having guys that have played athat higher level.
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Didn't see any of last year's games, but I think the 2014 team was the one with Damien McKenzie and Tevita Li - and Tom Sanders? I recall the Jaapies making mincemeat of our pack - I can recall thinking Sanders was a bit of a lone wolf forward and our backs keeping us in the game. Still lost.
 
Don't think the scrum can have been as bad as last night's one, because I don't recall thinking that 2014 performance was the most humiliating by an NZ team since the 1999 RWC. Last night's efforts in the scrums were that bad. 
 
Those Irish boys made us look like Australians! :)

Dice

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Higgins" data-cid="586911" data-time="1465688777">
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Ah but one of the props in particular has some people creaming themselves over his running in the open field skills. Probably already been granted a Wellington Lions contract given the way they hand them out to players either not up to it or yet to prove themselves.
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Apparently he's a certain future All Black and superstar in the making.

Immenso Rapido

Awesome. Well done Ireland.

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="586720" data-time="1465653449">
There are no future AB props on display here.</blockquote>
I would have said the same thing back in circa 2012 when the baby blacks team with Tuungafasi at tight head were getting minced. 
As someone who pretty much never watches the Blues, I still can't reconcile Ofa as being an AB. 
But then in 2011 I though I was watching a future great, and maybe captaincy potential in TJP. While 5 years later I have him ranked as the worst AB in my time. 
So anything can happen. Especially teaching young props to scrummage. Lowest common denominator stuff ....

bobily

I thought Fidow caused havoc counterrucking a few times. I know he is an awful scrummager at this level, but he is still a year young. If he can really work on things (to a Cruden-esque level) then I think he could be a very good player. Still I wouldn't want him as the starting prop next year (I rate Sione Asi, from what I've seen from him - but Fidow could still make impact from the bench). I definitely think it is too early for him, though and I think they coaches would have been better off selecting Joe Apikotoa, who has played for Wellington, so can probably hold up a scrum a wee bit better.
 
Overall, the issue definitely isn't size. We had a bigger forward pack than the Irish by 6kg per man. The problems were more technical. As someone has stated, most of these guys, in the forwards anyway, haven't played at a higher level, which means they haven't had this fulltime coaching, which some previous teams have had. Apart from Apisai, the only other forwards with ITM Cup experience are Hapakuki Moala-Liava'a and Mitchell Jacobson.
 
In the short-term, I'd like to see Paranihi starting with Kautai. Paranihi seemed like he was capable of holding up the loosehead side of the scrum until Fidow stood up. In the long-term, I'd like to see our forwards, the tight 5 in particular, selected for their setpiece ability. Given the nature of how we play, if we pick the better scrummagers going around, the guys should still have better ball skills than most the guys from other countries.
 
We can basically put out a full team next year (including Jordie Barrett, thankfully) that has played at this level (bolstered by the likes of Ioane, the Umaga-Jensens, Wiseguy Faiane), so I think next year should go a lot better. Hopefully some of them get a bit more experience at ITM Cup level (and even SupeRugby level)

bobily

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="586963" data-time="1465697255">
<div>
I would have said the same thing back in circa 2012 when the baby blacks team with Tuungafasi at tight head were getting minced. 
As someone who pretty much never watches the Blues, I still can't reconcile Ofa as being an AB. 
But then in 2011 I though I was watching a future great, and maybe captaincy potential in TJP. While 5 years later I have him ranked as the worst AB in my time. 
So anything can happen. Especially teaching youn props to scrimmage. Lowest common denominator stuff ....
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Yep, some of the players who have shown themselves to be brilliant at this level just never kicked on. It is hard to gauge much from these games alone, and any of these players, if they work hard could be future All Blacks.

Bones

That's why it's pretty funny to see people touting Barrett as the new AB 10 already.

Dice

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="586942" data-time="1465693562">
<div>
Didn't see any of last year's games, but I think the 2014 team was the one with Damien McKenzie and Tevita Li - and Tom Sanders? I recall the Jaapies making mincemeat of our pack - I can recall thinking Sanders was a bit of a lone wolf forward and our backs keeping us in the game. Still lost.
 
Don't think the scrum can have been as bad as last night's one, because I don't recall thinking that 2014 performance was the most humiliating by an NZ team since the 1999 RWC. Last night's efforts in the scrums were that bad. 
 
Those Irish boys made us look like Australians! :)
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</blockquote>
The pack that year was rubbish and even got thoroughly outplayed by Samoa. The backs were pretty good and kept the team watchable. Actually, 10 of 13 back players in that squad got Super contracts, which is pretty amazing.
 
I really liked last year's team, they looked quite assured and were a really smart outfit. The tight 5 weren't anything to write home about, but the scrummaging of the props did come around in the semi and final. The backrow was fun to watch and were head and shoulders above their peers - although when Karpik got injured, James Blackwell was not much of a replacement. The backline was really sharp and were probably the best defensive backline I can remember for the U20s.

Immenso Rapido

Impressive little stadium. 
Do Man City actually get crowds to their reserve grade games that fill the stadium? Or is the Sheik just spending money to look cool? 
I suppose their reserve team could field 11 world greats though

bobily

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">That's why it's pretty funny to see people touting Barrett as the new AB 10 already.
 
</blockquote>
 
Ridiculous for two reasons: he is playing 12, not 10.
 
Last thing we want is for him to get played all over the show. He has all the skills to be a very good 12, can't we just let him focus on that? To me, it seems like, if he does well, he'd be the perfect kind of 12 to have outside of Beauden Barrett, eventually. Can help control the game and kick goals, as well as being another playmaker.

bobily

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Dice" data-cid="586968" data-time="1465698243">
<div>
The pack that year was rubbish and even got thoroughly outplayed by Samoa. The backs were pretty good and kept the team watchable. Actually, 10 of 13 back players in that squad got Super contracts, which is pretty amazing.
 
I really liked last year's team, they looked quite assured and were a really smart outfit. The tight 5 weren't anything to write home about, but the scrummaging of the props did come around in the semi and final. The backrow was fun to watch and were head and shoulders above their peers - although when Karpik got injured, James Blackwell was not much of a replacement. The backline was really sharp and were probably the best defensive backline I can remember for the U20s.
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Yep, Faiane and Lienert-Brown were superb on defense. Goodhue was also pretty good, and Aso couldn't even make the starting lineup!

Crash

Yes agree with all of the above, a perfect example of how not to play wet weather rugby. We were tactically naiive and were outsmarted...
A very good day for Ireland seniors and juniors.

Dice

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="bobily" data-cid="586971" data-time="1465698556">
<div>
Yep, Faiane and Lienert-Brown were superb on defense. Goodhue was also pretty good, and Aso couldn't even make the starting lineup!
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</blockquote>
Yup, those 3 led the defense nicely. Teams could barely get any rhythm on attack because of them.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="586963" data-time="1465697255"> 
But then in 2011 I though I was watching a future great, and maybe captaincy potential in TJP. While 5 years later I have him ranked as the worst AB in my time. </blockquote>
 
Harsh. "Not lived up to potential/promise" I'll wear ... but worst? Naaah

Higgins

What's Colin Farrell up to these days?

ACT Crusader

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="586909" data-time="1465688614">I was searching for this on Foxtel and couldn't find it ... sounds like I was lucky.</blockquote>
 
Nepia it was on ch 507. They had been showing the games on 503 but because it clashed with the OZ v Italy game they moved us to the viewers choice channel. 
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The Silver Fern

New Zealand under 20