Black Caps tour of England 2022
-
@dogmeat said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@Crucial That argument would be more valid if we hadn't been in a position to win all three tests but failed to grasp the moment
1st Test England four down early chasing nearly 300
2nd test 550 in first innings after being put in
3rd Test England 6 down in first innings still nearly 300 behind!!That's not a lack of preparation.
If not for Mitch, Blundell and Boult we'd be Zimbabwe bad.
That pains me most of all, it’s not like this England team is amazing. In fact before the series I did a Sean Fitzpatrick like post mentioning how few Poms would make a combined team. It hasn’t aged well.
-
The English team is definitely better than their recent results suggest, and with Baz at the helm he will get them playing to their strengths - i.e. playing attacking cricket which they do so well in the shorter forms - so while they'll no doubt have some losses they are actually a chance if picking up some great wins as well now.
As @dogmeat says, in all 3 tests we got into positions of dominance but then didn't have that killer instinct that we showed during the last WTC to finish the job. We're missing some all time greats (BJ, Rosco) and Kane has been in and out of the side lately, so that's going to hurt us giving our paper thin depth at the best if times. We just don't have the same experience and leadership across the board that we used to.
Still, we are a far cry from some of the genuine Black Craps teams of the past, still plenty of quality in our lineup, but the golden era does appear to have come to an end.
-
Not all surprised at the series loss, or even 0-3.
I passed off the Bangladesh loss. But to get absolutely completely thrashed at home by the worst South African team since WW2 ( a few weeks after the Bangladeshi 'wake up call') showed that there was a huge momentum to the plummet ongoing that I couldn't see being reversed. A rot.
As for the actual measurable nuts and bolts to the decline. It is top order runs and old-ball bowling. That's the difference between now and 2 months ago.
As for the unmeasurable parts of the decline:
-
Can only really guess. But there seems a motivation/complacency issue. Losing at home to Bangladesh didn't seem to make much of a wave.
-
There is a leadership (coaching/captaincy/selection) issue. I don't care for a messiah coach, but I think Stead has been shown to be a cruiser who kept a steady hand when it was going well, but was incapable when wheels started falling off in some away tours (Australia) and the current decline.
-
-
@Darren said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
Mitchell and Blundell are two huge positives to come out of this.
The top 5 have been comically bad. Currently without a doubt the worst top 5 going. By a long way. Not even close.
I don’t agree with that at all, the guy batting five in the first test went ok.
The other four are all in various degrees of terrible form though.
@MN5 said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@Darren said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
Mitchell and Blundell are two huge positives to come out of this.
The top 5 have been comically bad. Currently without a doubt the worst top 5 going. By a long way. Not even close.
I don’t agree with that at all, the guy batting five in the first test went ok.
The other four are all in various degrees of terrible form though.
OK
But last test top 5 order of:BATTING R B M 4s 6s SR
Tom Latham
c Root b Broad
0 6 5 0 0 0.00
Will Young
lbw b Leach
20 42 57 2 0 47.61
Kane Williamson (c)
c †Foakes b Broad
31 64 97 5 0 48.43
Devon Conway
b Overton
26 62 100 5 0 41.93
Henry Nicholls
c Lees b Leach
19 99 137 1 0 19.19 -
@MN5 I remember that hubristic post of yours.
At the time I thought it could well come back to bite you and wanted to call for your banning for posting it.
Mind you I want to get you banned for at least 50% of your posts!
@dogmeat said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@MN5 I remember that hubristic post of yours.
At the time I thought it could well come back to bite you and wanted to call for your banning for posting it.
Mind you I want to get you banned for at least 50% of your posts!
Only 50% ? I must try harder.
I think I’ll stick to boxing predictions, I do really well at them, I got the Tua/Cameron fight perfect !
-
@Crucial said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@canefan said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
When your top order fails to fire, and you compound this with poor selection and tactics, we had no chance. Captaincy from Kane and Tom seemed to lack inspiration
Lots of reasons but have NZC not learned that trying to tour without adequate preparation ends in failure? Talk about doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
IPL fucks things up but it’s NZCs job to get past that.To be unusually fair to them, two warm-up first class games is probably more prep than most tours these days. The top order still shat the bed with the bat in one of those games as well...
@Donsteppa said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@Crucial said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@canefan said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
When your top order fails to fire, and you compound this with poor selection and tactics, we had no chance. Captaincy from Kane and Tom seemed to lack inspiration
Lots of reasons but have NZC not learned that trying to tour without adequate preparation ends in failure? Talk about doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
IPL fucks things up but it’s NZCs job to get past that.To be unusually fair to them, two warm-up first class games is probably more prep than most tours these days. The top order still shat the bed with the bat in one of those games as well...
England is the only tour guaranteed to get warm-up games.
But NZ turned both of the games from FC status to miscellaneous status12 or 15-a-side games. SO that they could drip-feed returning IPL players into the matches as they got progressively got knocked out of the IPL.
That is no one's 'fault' but NZ's own, the team management.
In some ways, that seems a decent approach. I can support them turning the second game into that sort of open-net status match.
But not the first match. Which predictably absolutely zero IPL players joined hall-way through.
I'm a believer in the status of the match sharpening the attitudes (that's how I am wired anyway ...) I don't really care if our absolutely best players got a poor lead-up, they can cope. But to hobble the non-IPL stars is just ham-fisted myopia.
The biggest mystery of the warm-ups was Wagner's lack of overs. He was under-bowled in the home summer domestically.
I actually cancelled my Spark subscription after the first test as it was so predictably soft after a squandered build-up. Cancelled in contempt and disgust at the lack of attitude.
Similarly I cancelled my Sky subscription back after day1 Boxing Day test after NZ squandered their 9 day gap before the second test by cancelling their (admittedly pathetically non-FC status) tour game because it was too hot, (Rather than have prepared properly and flown over 4 brand new tour bowlers for that match only, got the batters time in the middle on foreign pitches in match that counts to their career records).
-
@MN5 said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@Darren said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
Mitchell and Blundell are two huge positives to come out of this.
The top 5 have been comically bad. Currently without a doubt the worst top 5 going. By a long way. Not even close.
I don’t agree with that at all, the guy batting five in the first test went ok.
The other four are all in various degrees of terrible form though.
OK
But last test top 5 order of:BATTING R B M 4s 6s SR
Tom Latham
c Root b Broad
0 6 5 0 0 0.00
Will Young
lbw b Leach
20 42 57 2 0 47.61
Kane Williamson (c)
c †Foakes b Broad
31 64 97 5 0 48.43
Devon Conway
b Overton
26 62 100 5 0 41.93
Henry Nicholls
c Lees b Leach
19 99 137 1 0 19.19@Darren said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@MN5 said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@Darren said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
Mitchell and Blundell are two huge positives to come out of this.
The top 5 have been comically bad. Currently without a doubt the worst top 5 going. By a long way. Not even close.
I don’t agree with that at all, the guy batting five in the first test went ok.
The other four are all in various degrees of terrible form though.
OK
But last test top 5 order of:BATTING R B M 4s 6s SR
Tom Latham
c Root b Broad
0 6 5 0 0 0.00
Will Young
lbw b Leach
20 42 57 2 0 47.61
Kane Williamson (c)
c †Foakes b Broad
31 64 97 5 0 48.43
Devon Conway
b Overton
26 62 100 5 0 41.93
Henry Nicholls
c Lees b Leach
19 99 137 1 0 19.19That’s grim reading for sure but they’re not all of a sudden minnows, they all have the talent to come back although the form slump in all of them at once is devastating for a team trying to compete at test level.
-
The English team is definitely better than their recent results suggest, and with Baz at the helm he will get them playing to their strengths - i.e. playing attacking cricket which they do so well in the shorter forms - so while they'll no doubt have some losses they are actually a chance if picking up some great wins as well now.
As @dogmeat says, in all 3 tests we got into positions of dominance but then didn't have that killer instinct that we showed during the last WTC to finish the job. We're missing some all time greats (BJ, Rosco) and Kane has been in and out of the side lately, so that's going to hurt us giving our paper thin depth at the best if times. We just don't have the same experience and leadership across the board that we used to.
Still, we are a far cry from some of the genuine Black Craps teams of the past, still plenty of quality in our lineup, but the golden era does appear to have come to an end.
-
Nowhere near as disappointing as that horrendous Australian series (possibly because I haven't been watching) - but, second-most disappointing series in a long, long time.
Whenever the pressure has come on, we've seemed to have simply folded - with a couple of obvious exceptions.
If you'd told me at the start of the series that Mitch Jr and Blundell would make more runs than the two best England batsmen, you would have said 3-0 to us and thanks for coming.
-
the series averages are really quite something
With the bat it's Mitchell with a very nice 107, Blundell with 76, Park Cricket Colin's 1 innings of 42. Everyone else is under 25. Nicholls the shittest of the shit with 15.
With the ball its Boult with 16 @ 29, Park Cricket Colin with 1 @ 27 (both his results showing the danger of stats). Southee took 9 wickets @ 59!!
But the economy rates all sort of 3.8 and up shows we were leaking them quick as well.
Bracewell deserves everything he gets for 5 wickets @ 57 while also going for basically a run a ball.Just insipid everywhere. Coaching. Leadership. Captaincy. And execution.
This is a disastrous tour, and unlike Chris, i think this is just as bad as that Aussie horror show. This England team isn't that good, we won last time we played there. And they lamped us 3-0
-
the series averages are really quite something
With the bat it's Mitchell with a very nice 107, Blundell with 76, Park Cricket Colin's 1 innings of 42. Everyone else is under 25. Nicholls the shittest of the shit with 15.
With the ball its Boult with 16 @ 29, Park Cricket Colin with 1 @ 27 (both his results showing the danger of stats). Southee took 9 wickets @ 59!!
But the economy rates all sort of 3.8 and up shows we were leaking them quick as well.
Bracewell deserves everything he gets for 5 wickets @ 57 while also going for basically a run a ball.Just insipid everywhere. Coaching. Leadership. Captaincy. And execution.
This is a disastrous tour, and unlike Chris, i think this is just as bad as that Aussie horror show. This England team isn't that good, we won last time we played there. And they lamped us 3-0
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
the series averages are really quite something
With the bat it's Mitchell with a very nice 107, Blundell with 76, Park Cricket Colin's 1 innings of 42. Everyone else is under 25. Nicholls the shittest of the shit with 15.
With the ball its Boult with 16 @ 29, Park Cricket Colin with 1 @ 27 (both his results showing the danger of stats). Southee took 9 wickets @ 59!!
But the economy rates all sort of 3.8 and up shows we were leaking them quick as well.
Bracewell deserves everything he gets for 5 wickets @ 57 while also going for basically a run a ball.Just insipid everywhere. Coaching. Leadership. Captaincy. And execution.
This is a disastrous tour, and unlike Chris, i think this is just as bad as that Aussie horror show. This England team isn't that good, we won last time we played there. And they lamped us 3-0
I agree. On paper we just shouldn't be that bad, and i cant believe our players became poor overnight. But we were so poor in every department that we had to be saved by Mitch and Blundell every game, almost every innings. (If) Wags was underbowled in the warm up, then barely used, Ajaz is considered our best attacking spinner and only bowled a couple of overs in his one appearance to be passed over for a journeyman debutant. The top order not only started poorly, they showed no signs of improvement as a group as the series went on. Everyone needs to take a slice of blame pie from Stead to Kane and down. Except Mitch, Blundell, Boult, and Wags and Ajaz (because they barely featured) I don't think anyone did themselves proud
-
the series averages are really quite something
With the bat it's Mitchell with a very nice 107, Blundell with 76, Park Cricket Colin's 1 innings of 42. Everyone else is under 25. Nicholls the shittest of the shit with 15.
With the ball its Boult with 16 @ 29, Park Cricket Colin with 1 @ 27 (both his results showing the danger of stats). Southee took 9 wickets @ 59!!
But the economy rates all sort of 3.8 and up shows we were leaking them quick as well.
Bracewell deserves everything he gets for 5 wickets @ 57 while also going for basically a run a ball.Just insipid everywhere. Coaching. Leadership. Captaincy. And execution.
This is a disastrous tour, and unlike Chris, i think this is just as bad as that Aussie horror show. This England team isn't that good, we won last time we played there. And they lamped us 3-0
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
the series averages are really quite something
With the bat it's Mitchell with a very nice 107, Blundell with 76, Park Cricket Colin's 1 innings of 42. Everyone else is under 25. Nicholls the shittest of the shit with 15.
With the ball its Boult with 16 @ 29, Park Cricket Colin with 1 @ 27 (both his results showing the danger of stats). Southee took 9 wickets @ 59!!
But the economy rates all sort of 3.8 and up shows we were leaking them quick as well.
Bracewell deserves everything he gets for 5 wickets @ 57 while also going for basically a run a ball.Just insipid everywhere. Coaching. Leadership. Captaincy. And execution.
This is a disastrous tour, and unlike Chris, i think this is just as bad as that Aussie horror show. This England team isn't that good, we won last time we played there. And they lamped us 3-0
Look at those figures……
CDGH is basically this eras Imran/Kallis ! What a player…..
-
@mariner4life said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
the series averages are really quite something
With the bat it's Mitchell with a very nice 107, Blundell with 76, Park Cricket Colin's 1 innings of 42. Everyone else is under 25. Nicholls the shittest of the shit with 15.
With the ball its Boult with 16 @ 29, Park Cricket Colin with 1 @ 27 (both his results showing the danger of stats). Southee took 9 wickets @ 59!!
But the economy rates all sort of 3.8 and up shows we were leaking them quick as well.
Bracewell deserves everything he gets for 5 wickets @ 57 while also going for basically a run a ball.Just insipid everywhere. Coaching. Leadership. Captaincy. And execution.
This is a disastrous tour, and unlike Chris, i think this is just as bad as that Aussie horror show. This England team isn't that good, we won last time we played there. And they lamped us 3-0
Look at those figures……
CDGH is basically this eras Imran/Kallis ! What a player…..
@MN5 Yeah - bloody Parc des Colin!!!
Where are the stats capturing his dozy runout, his dismissing Stokes with a no-ball and then busting his foot and leaving us a bowler short - all tied up with a big bow and handed to the English in a box labelled "Momentum"!
-
the series averages are really quite something
With the bat it's Mitchell with a very nice 107, Blundell with 76, Park Cricket Colin's 1 innings of 42. Everyone else is under 25. Nicholls the shittest of the shit with 15.
With the ball its Boult with 16 @ 29, Park Cricket Colin with 1 @ 27 (both his results showing the danger of stats). Southee took 9 wickets @ 59!!
But the economy rates all sort of 3.8 and up shows we were leaking them quick as well.
Bracewell deserves everything he gets for 5 wickets @ 57 while also going for basically a run a ball.Just insipid everywhere. Coaching. Leadership. Captaincy. And execution.
This is a disastrous tour, and unlike Chris, i think this is just as bad as that Aussie horror show. This England team isn't that good, we won last time we played there. And they lamped us 3-0
@mariner4life The thing that makes the Aussie horror show worse for me is that we were simply never in any game in that series.
It was a total humiliation from start to finish and probably we were swatted away more easily than the flies.
And the English commentators are doubtless a bit more gracious in victory.
And (like if the Blues had won) we can take credit for their coach!
-
@MN5 Yeah - bloody Parc des Colin!!!
Where are the stats capturing his dozy runout, his dismissing Stokes with a no-ball and then busting his foot and leaving us a bowler short - all tied up with a big bow and handed to the English in a box labelled "Momentum"!
@Chris-B said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@MN5 Yeah - bloody Parc des Colin!!!
Where are the stats capturing his dozy runout, his dismissing Stokes with a no-ball and then busting his foot and leaving us a bowler short - all tied up with a big bow and handed to the English in a box labelled "Momentum"!
He showed us his best and his worst all inside a few days. Time to move on from him, he simply can't be trusted
-
@Chris-B said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@MN5 Yeah - bloody Parc des Colin!!!
Where are the stats capturing his dozy runout, his dismissing Stokes with a no-ball and then busting his foot and leaving us a bowler short - all tied up with a big bow and handed to the English in a box labelled "Momentum"!
He showed us his best and his worst all inside a few days. Time to move on from him, he simply can't be trusted
@canefan said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@Chris-B said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@MN5 Yeah - bloody Parc des Colin!!!
Where are the stats capturing his dozy runout, his dismissing Stokes with a no-ball and then busting his foot and leaving us a bowler short - all tied up with a big bow and handed to the English in a box labelled "Momentum"!
He showed us his best and his worst all inside a few days. Time to move on from him, he simply can't be trusted
…..dunno, there’s hardly a plethora of other options.
Does anyone know why Neesham appears to have given up test cricket ?
-
@canefan said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@Chris-B said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@MN5 Yeah - bloody Parc des Colin!!!
Where are the stats capturing his dozy runout, his dismissing Stokes with a no-ball and then busting his foot and leaving us a bowler short - all tied up with a big bow and handed to the English in a box labelled "Momentum"!
He showed us his best and his worst all inside a few days. Time to move on from him, he simply can't be trusted
…..dunno, there’s hardly a plethora of other options.
Does anyone know why Neesham appears to have given up test cricket ?
@MN5 Probably because he never gets picked.
Dunno if he's available, but he's not a good enough bowler to command an allrounder spot in a test team - and he's not a good enough batsman to command a specialist batting spot.
Apparently, he doesn't even warrant a NZC contract - though that's a mystery to me - should be one of the first picked for ODIs and T20s.
-
@Chris-B said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@MN5 Yeah - bloody Parc des Colin!!!
Where are the stats capturing his dozy runout, his dismissing Stokes with a no-ball and then busting his foot and leaving us a bowler short - all tied up with a big bow and handed to the English in a box labelled "Momentum"!
He showed us his best and his worst all inside a few days. Time to move on from him, he simply can't be trusted
@canefan said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@Chris-B said in Black Caps tour of England 2022:
@MN5 Yeah - bloody Parc des Colin!!!
Where are the stats capturing his dozy runout, his dismissing Stokes with a no-ball and then busting his foot and leaving us a bowler short - all tied up with a big bow and handed to the English in a box labelled "Momentum"!
He showed us his best and his worst all inside a few days. Time to move on from him, he simply can't be trusted
I hesitate to say it, as it was such a train wreck with increasing momentum.
But for NZ, the loss of CdG through injury was probably the critical moment that the series turned into an irretreivable burning dumpster fire.
From that moment on NZ never controlled the run rate.
It meant NZ selected M Bracewell to replace him on all-rounder balance and dropped Ajaz. With Wagner and Henry taking up CdG 3rd/4th seamer role. All of these 3 went for 2 to 3 runs per over more than what CdG was doing.
Small sample sizes, but ....
-
I'm not sure that Jamieson upsets the balance of the side anymore, though he is a huge loss as a bowler. Saw a couple of Tweets over the weekend saying Jamieson has gone from being a genuine all-rounder candidate to being a genuine #11 candidate with the bat - at least on form.
On recent stats (e.g. this series https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=14150;team=5;type=series) it's hard to argue...
Looking up his overall batting record in Tests, it's got worse the longer he's played. The number of innings have increased, while averages and balls faced have dropped significantly:
Source: https://www.espncricinfo.com/player/kyle-jamieson-625960/bowling-batting-stats
