All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Christ on a bike, I've just read back the last few pages of the thread and am forming a mental picture of a bunch of posters sitting in a padded cell banging their heads against the wall mumbling "Foster! fucking Foster! Fat Foster! wah Foster!"
I'm not for one minute saying that he is beyond debate or discussion but some of the stuff is deranged thinking based on complete lack of knowledge of what is happening in camp.
Got to say though, selection craziness is a consistent pattern with Foster's sides.
Henry took players like Coles, who was a fast light hothead, and turned him into a properly good international hooker that other sides hated.
Foster is skipping over power wings for George Bridge. It feels like he's trying to get too cute with selections, without a discernable plan. SO yeah, there's a bit of knee jerk, but lord knows it's deserved.
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Christ on a bike, I've just read back the last few pages of the thread and am forming a mental picture of a bunch of posters sitting in a padded cell banging their heads against the wall mumbling "Foster! fucking Foster! Fat Foster! wah Foster!"
I'm not for one minute saying that he is beyond debate or discussion but some of the stuff is deranged thinking based on complete lack of knowledge of what is happening in camp.
Got to say though, selection craziness is a consistent pattern with Foster's sides.
Henry took players like Coles, who was a fast light hothead, and turned him into a properly good international hooker that other sides hated.
Foster is skipping over power wings for George Bridge. It feels like he's trying to get too cute with selections, without a discernable plan. SO yeah, there's a bit of knee jerk, but lord knows it's deserved.
Thing is with Foster - you can see what he's trying to do, it's not illogical. But with the benefit of hindsight he's got a few things wrong - and you've got to fear that hindsight is going to catch up with us again at the business end of next year.
George - last year - over Big Leicester was logical. Leicester was far from ready then (I'm not sure he's ready now to be honest - not to be starting this game, anyway) and Caleb Clarke was off playing sevens. Foster's got it right now - because he's brought Telea in ahead of Bridge, who has fallen off a cliff.
Playing Jordie ahead of Jordan looks even worse with hindsight, but you can see the logic to it at the time.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Christ on a bike, I've just read back the last few pages of the thread and am forming a mental picture of a bunch of posters sitting in a padded cell banging their heads against the wall mumbling "Foster! fucking Foster! Fat Foster! wah Foster!"
I'm not for one minute saying that he is beyond debate or discussion but some of the stuff is deranged thinking based on complete lack of knowledge of what is happening in camp.
Got to say though, selection craziness is a consistent pattern with Foster's sides.
Henry took players like Coles, who was a fast light hothead, and turned him into a properly good international hooker that other sides hated.
Foster is skipping over power wings for George Bridge. It feels like he's trying to get too cute with selections, without a discernable plan. SO yeah, there's a bit of knee jerk, but lord knows it's deserved.
Thing is with Foster - you can see what he's trying to do, it's not illogical. But with the benefit of hindsight he's got a few things wrong - and you've got to fear that hindsight is going to catch up with us again at the business end of next year.
George - last year - over Big Leicester was logical. Leicester was far from ready then (I'm not sure he's ready now to be honest - not to be starting this game, anyway) and Caleb Clarke was off playing sevens. Foster's got it right now - because he's brought Telea in ahead of Bridge, who has fallen off a cliff.
Playing Jordie ahead of Jordan looks even worse with hindsight, but you can see the logic to it at the time.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Playing Jordie ahead of Jordan looks even worse with hindsight, but you can see the logic to it at the time.
You can? Can you explain it to me as I never understood it?
Foster has done some good stuff which he deserves credit for, but he's also done some weird stuff. I'm not bagging him as I think he inherited a bit of a disaster, but he's still on probation for me.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Got to say though, selection craziness is a consistent pattern with Foster's sides.
TBF, he seems to have managed Akira better than others. And got Jordie in his best position - though that needed a few Tests of super-crazy selections.
Still not convinced by him though.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Got to say though, selection craziness is a consistent pattern with Foster's sides.
TBF, he seems to have managed Akira better than others. And got Jordie in his best position - though that needed a few Tests of super-crazy selections.
Still not convinced by him though.
Am not sure that's down to Foster or Plumtree, more to do with Tom Coventry and McDonald.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
You might have zero idea of the gameplan, but I’m fairly confident it will be the same as we have seen for years. There is nothing in Foster’s communications that have indicated a real change in tactics, ala Eddie Jones. It is just a lot of ‘we need to do it better’ Cheika style platitudes.
Well, the bigger problem for me isn't the tactics, it's the inability of the players to execute the game-plan consistently and focus and re-group when things aren't going well.
Playing the best players regardless of their position is what seems to be the case, and has lead to a ridiculously unblanced team.
This I agree with. One of the great mysteries of the world is why he persisted with Jordie on the wing and with Bridge in the team - no doubt we'll find when he writes a book. I have my doubts about it but can see the logic of SB at 6, but covering 4&5 as well?
@Victor-Meldrew it’s not as if this sort of thing hasn’t happened before though.
Flavell at 6, he’s no blindside, he’s a lock, but he’s got pace
What is Jerry Collins playing number 8? That’s not his position.
Mils on the wing? Mils at centre? Mils back at fullback?
Dagg on the wing? Dagg back at fullback?
Bender on the wing? Bender at centre? Bender at fullback? Bender back on the wing?
And you could go through a litany of props that were used under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen - where the response was either “what’s he done?” to “whatever happened to such and such, I thought he looked alright after his first shot off the bench”, never to see him much again.
Maybe our internet plans are better now and we can write more about it
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
All this with zero idea of the gameplan. Barrett's speed matters nothing if we plan to drive up the guts and/or force Ireland to go wide to make metres
I just hope it's better than the WC Semi plan vs England, all I'm saying.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
All this with zero idea of the gameplan. Barrett's speed matters nothing if we plan to drive up the guts and/or force Ireland to go wide to make metres
I just hope it's better than the WC Semi plan vs England, all I'm saying.
Really, do you even know what the game plan was in 2019 semi, and did players play to it? I sure the coaches AND senior players have a game plan they think will work, if Irish allow them to play it as they want.
Always remember what a coach said in asking what the game plan is, he said it's really set by the opposition. -
@Victor-Meldrew it’s not as if this sort of thing hasn’t happened before though.
Flavell at 6, he’s no blindside, he’s a lock, but he’s got pace
What is Jerry Collins playing number 8? That’s not his position.
Mils on the wing? Mils at centre? Mils back at fullback?
Dagg on the wing? Dagg back at fullback?
Bender on the wing? Bender at centre? Bender at fullback? Bender back on the wing?
And you could go through a litany of props that were used under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen - where the response was either “what’s he done?” to “whatever happened to such and such, I thought he looked alright after his first shot off the bench”, never to see him much again.
Maybe our internet plans are better now and we can write more about it
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Victor-Meldrew it’s not as if this sort of thing hasn’t happened before though.
Flavell at 6, he’s no blindside, he’s a lock, but he’s got pace
What is Jerry Collins playing number 8? That’s not his position.
Mils on the wing? Mils at centre? Mils back at fullback?
Dagg on the wing? Dagg back at fullback?
Bender on the wing? Bender at centre? Bender at fullback? Bender back on the wing?
And you could go through a litany of props that were used under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen - where the response was either “what’s he done?” to “whatever happened to such and such, I thought he looked alright after his first shot off the bench”, never to see him much again.
Maybe our internet plans are better now and we can write more about it
Yep and if our internet plans are not what turns out to be the one that wins a game, we can just shut up as noone remembers what they were anyway. Actually haven't even read on this or any forums a gameplan by any posters.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Christ on a bike, I've just read back the last few pages of the thread and am forming a mental picture of a bunch of posters sitting in a padded cell banging their heads against the wall mumbling "Foster! fucking Foster! Fat Foster! wah Foster!"
I'm not for one minute saying that he is beyond debate or discussion but some of the stuff is deranged thinking based on complete lack of knowledge of what is happening in camp.
Got to say though, selection craziness is a consistent pattern with Foster's sides.
Henry took players like Coles, who was a fast light hothead, and turned him into a properly good international hooker that other sides hated.
Foster is skipping over power wings for George Bridge. It feels like he's trying to get too cute with selections, without a discernable plan. SO yeah, there's a bit of knee jerk, but lord knows it's deserved.
Thing is with Foster - you can see what he's trying to do, it's not illogical. But with the benefit of hindsight he's got a few things wrong - and you've got to fear that hindsight is going to catch up with us again at the business end of next year.
George - last year - over Big Leicester was logical. Leicester was far from ready then (I'm not sure he's ready now to be honest - not to be starting this game, anyway) and Caleb Clarke was off playing sevens. Foster's got it right now - because he's brought Telea in ahead of Bridge, who has fallen off a cliff.
Playing Jordie ahead of Jordan looks even worse with hindsight, but you can see the logic to it at the time.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Leicester was far from ready then (I'm not sure he's ready now to be honest - not to be starting this game, anyway)
I just don't get this logic that these young/new players 'aren't ready'. I could understand it if our top guys were doing the business but they aren't.
In the last 4 big games of the season last year we squeaked out a last minute vs the Boks and then lost to the Boks, Ireland and France. A Boks team the Wallabies beat twice by the way (the second time fairly handily).
There's a difference between Leicester being ready compared to a World XV winger and being ready compared to our recent options.
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Just saw the team. I'm sure I'm not the first to have coughed up a lung seeing the name Ennor. Jesus effing christ.
My prediction is that Ireland will bully us in the forwards and the backs will try hard to execute some awesome Foster move but fail to click (which I guess is understandable with the new combos), then Ireland will run out of puff and the ABs will steal it with a late RM penalty.
Not really a bold prediction. Another will be that the game is stopped for 10 minutes while reviewing a tackle frame by frame. There will then be a card. Probably red.
Oh yeah. Foster is fat.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Got to say though, selection craziness is a consistent pattern with Foster's sides.
TBF, he seems to have managed Akira better than others. And got Jordie in his best position - though that needed a few Tests of super-crazy selections.
Still not convinced by him though.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Got to say though, selection craziness is a consistent pattern with Foster's sides.
TBF, he seems to have managed Akira better than others. And got Jordie in his best position - though that needed a few Tests of super-crazy selections.
Still not convinced by him though.
When has Jordie played 12?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Leicester was far from ready then (I'm not sure he's ready now to be honest - not to be starting this game, anyway)
I just don't get this logic that these young/new players 'aren't ready'. I could understand it if our top guys were doing the business but they aren't.
In the last 4 big games of the season last year we squeaked out a last minute vs the Boks and then lost to the Boks, Ireland and France. A Boks team the Wallabies beat twice by the way (the second time fairly handily).
There's a difference between Leicester being ready compared to a World XV winger and being ready compared to our recent options.
@KiwiMurph Well, we could have picked Leicester when he was on TV starring for Nelson College, but he wasn't ready then either.
Last year he was still making tons of errors and he wasn't secure under the high ball.
This year he's still making a few more errors than I'd like, but he's definitely significantly better.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Playing Jordie ahead of Jordan looks even worse with hindsight, but you can see the logic to it at the time.
You can? Can you explain it to me as I never understood it?
Foster has done some good stuff which he deserves credit for, but he's also done some weird stuff. I'm not bagging him as I think he inherited a bit of a disaster, but he's still on probation for me.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
Playing Jordie ahead of Jordan looks even worse with hindsight, but you can see the logic to it at the time.
You can? Can you explain it to me as I never understood it?
Foster has done some good stuff which he deserves credit for, but he's also done some weird stuff. I'm not bagging him as I think he inherited a bit of a disaster, but he's still on probation for me.
Jordan had never played a test. We had no easy warm-up games to ease him in. And Fozzie was a new, ender-pressure head coach desperate to win, so Jordie seemed like a safe option.
As it turned out, Jordan looks like he didn't need those training wheels, but maybe he's benefited from being held back.
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@Victor-Meldrew it’s not as if this sort of thing hasn’t happened before though.
Flavell at 6, he’s no blindside, he’s a lock, but he’s got pace
What is Jerry Collins playing number 8? That’s not his position.
Mils on the wing? Mils at centre? Mils back at fullback?
Dagg on the wing? Dagg back at fullback?
Bender on the wing? Bender at centre? Bender at fullback? Bender back on the wing?
And you could go through a litany of props that were used under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen - where the response was either “what’s he done?” to “whatever happened to such and such, I thought he looked alright after his first shot off the bench”, never to see him much again.
Maybe our internet plans are better now and we can write more about it
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Victor-Meldrew it’s not as if this sort of thing hasn’t happened before though.
**Flavell at 6, he’s no blindside, he’s a lock, but he’s got pace
What is Jerry Collins playing number 8? That’s not his position.
**
Mils on the wing? Mils at centre? Mils back at fullback?Dagg on the wing? Dagg back at fullback?
Bender on the wing? Bender at centre? Bender at fullback? Bender back on the wing?
And you could go through a litany of props that were used under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen - where the response was either “what’s he done?” to “whatever happened to such and such, I thought he looked alright after his first shot off the bench”, never to see him much again.
Maybe our internet plans are better now and we can write more about it
They both played loads at six and eight respectively or is my memory that bad ?
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
Actually, I was specifically responding to your criteria. You were the one who said:
exactly, if we need a lock the SB is ya man....if we need a 6 that can step into lock for the final 20mins...there are better options, this is just fozzie getting blinded by just getting who he considers the best 23 players on the pitch without considering other factors
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
Actually, I was specifically responding to your criteria. You were the one who said:
exactly, if we need a lock the SB is ya man....if we need a 6 that can step into lock for the final 20mins...there are better options, this is just fozzie getting blinded by just getting who he considers the best 23 players on the pitch without considering other factors
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
Actually, I was specifically responding to your criteria. You were the one who said:
exactly, if we need a lock the SB is ya man....if we need a 6 that can step into lock for the final 20mins...there are better options, this is just fozzie getting blinded by just getting who he considers the best 23 players on the pitch without considering other factors
thought it was clear what i was saying, but obviously not....if we're looking for a 6 that can cover lock...you still pick a bloody six, you dont move a lock
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
@Chris-B Scott Barret is not an experienced 6 at super level, let alone test level. My memory is shit, but has he even had an adequate game at 6 for the AB's?
I'd still rather have him than any other option if the criteria is someone who can cover lock.
If we were just picking an available 6, I'd be happier with Tom Robinson - but, I don't want a bar of him covering lock.
jesus...is that how far we've fallen...one of the key criteria for a position is the ability to cover another position for 20mins? how about just being the best fucking 6 in the country and we'll stick another lock on the bench?
Actually, I was specifically responding to your criteria. You were the one who said:
exactly, if we need a lock the SB is ya man....if we need a 6 that can step into lock for the final 20mins...there are better options, this is just fozzie getting blinded by just getting who he considers the best 23 players on the pitch without considering other factors
thought it was clear what i was saying, but obviously not....if we're looking for a 6 that can cover lock...you still pick a bloody six, you dont move a lock
@Kiwiwomble Well, not to belabour the point - I think the idea of having a blindside who covers lock is probably fool's gold.
We learned in Chicago that Kaino wasn't up to the job and if he couldn't do it almost no-one can. Except Pieter-Steph du Toit!
But, if we're going to field someone to do that job, then in my mind Scott Barrett IS the best option.
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@Kiwiwomble Well, not to belabour the point - I think the idea of having a blindside who covers lock is probably fool's gold.
We learned in Chicago that Kaino wasn't up to the job and if he couldn't do it almost no-one can. Except Pieter-Steph du Toit!
But, if we're going to field someone to do that job, then in my mind Scott Barrett IS the best option.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
But, if we're going to field someone to do that job, then in my mind Scott Barrett IS the best option.
Barrett has said himself that pushing in the scrum takes more out your legs at lock, so you could end up blunting the strengths of a mobile 6.
"You actually have an extra gear because you are not right in the engine room of the scrum".
Defending from a scrum will be the biggest adjustment, but work around the field is similar as I don't think he will be in the wider channels like Ioane often is.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks v Ireland - 1st Test:
But, if we're going to field someone to do that job, then in my mind Scott Barrett IS the best option.
Barrett has said himself that pushing in the scrum takes more out your legs at lock, so you could end up blunting the strengths of a mobile 6.
"You actually have an extra gear because you are not right in the engine room of the scrum".
Defending from a scrum will be the biggest adjustment, but work around the field is similar as I don't think he will be in the wider channels like Ioane often is.
@Bovidae Yeah - I think that Scott is covering lock is a bit incidental to his selection.
They need a third lineout option and they don't want to risk PGS on debut.
If it's a close game, I'd expect Scott, Retallick and Whitelock all to play big minutes.
