All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test
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So what needs to change? They need a different TH but with the squad options and the suspension for the RC, will have to be Ofa. Stick the chiefs hooker in or at least bring him on earlier. PT should be nowhere near the 23, maybe Vaa’i. Loose forward mix was not right. We could bring akira in but he’s not a line out option. Anyone but PGS on the bench, maybe sotutu.
In the backs, the best FB in SR was will Jordan he can go to 15. Either drop Jordie or move him to 12. No doubt they will play Jordan at 14 though. Havili or Goodhue into 12, if only to shore up the porous defence.
Tactics: earn the right to go wide. Where are the pick n goes, the blindside snipes, the kicking for touch rather than handing back possession? Play territory but tramlines not mindless midfield hoofs. Once players sucked in then use the wide pass.
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Posting quickly before going back through the thread.
Disappointing result but not unforeseen.
Like last week I'd suggest the margin was flattering to the winners, especially given the cards.
The Ta'avao card, as I said at half time, was the worst application of the head impact laws I have seen. He made no effort to tackle and just happened to be in the space that Ringrose ran into.
I get the requirement to avoid direct contact to the head, but wandering across in cover and some bloke clatters in to you unexpectedly is hardly worth a Red.
Where was the ball carrier's responsibility to avoid head contact?
Reckon he'll be out longer with concussion than what he gets at the judiciary.
On the upside I'd also expect Newell to get a call up.
Am a little miffed at LF's YC for similar reasons, but he did at least launch himself at the player.
Also, repeating my pissedoffedness at the substitution debacle. Admittedly once they got Ofa back on they had to drag someone so not as bad as I first thought, but why swap out a loosie when there was no need? They could not play Ross on the TH, as he was the nominated LH.
So, down to 13 you've got to admire the D to prevent any points being scored. But you've got to think playing for 60+ minutes with less than a full complement the result between two balanced sides was kind of inevitable.
Stuff you can blame the coaches for:
- What was with the midfield high kicks? All it did was gift the ball and field position to Ireland. Seemed a complete waste of ball.
- We're still too porous on defence. That first try seemed a carbon copy of last week. Couple of easy breaks then try and defend the inevitable.
Not sure if coaching:
- Handling skills. WTF? Is this the players or are they being asked to catch the impossible?
Positive Learnings*:
- Despite my whinge about defence above, our D against an extra man was commendable.
Will now subject myself to the thread ...
@booboo said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Stuff you can blame the coaches for:
- What was with the midfield high kicks? All it did was gift the ball and field position to Ireland. Seemed a complete waste of ball.
If my memory serves me right these were the first few plays of game.
- We kick off, and Ireland do what Ireland do and exit extremely well either via Lowe or Park and get the ball out around half way nearly every time.
- We get the ball, don't really make any ground and BB or AS put in a midfield bomb.
- Ireland defuse the bomb more often than not, regather, play some structure then kick us back into our half or 22.
So in only a few phases Ireland have us under pressure and to be honest this is simple rugby. Play for territory, pressure the opposition on D whilst they try to exit and hope they make mistakes.
If Ireland could finish their attacks they would be a very difficult team to beat.
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I think we also need to realise that the disconnect between SR and Test rugby is hurting us and not playing SA sides is also hurting. The 6 Nations and European comps seem to be really strong and have helped the NH sides immensely. The fact Ireland and Wales just won for the first time away shows their progress.
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@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Victor-Meldrew Mostly disagree noting your disclaimer that he is not the only problem. Dumping him would be the smart thing to do though. We know he does not have the goods and the World Cup is pretty much a goner under his leadership. So what’s the purpose of holding on to him and the rest of the crew? Better to blood someone new with fresh eyes and see what can be done to salvage this mess.
He may not be the biggest problem and, on it's own, getting rid of him might simply delay facing up to, or obscure, the real root cause of poor performance. Let's not simply shift deckchairs a la Titanic and avoid facing up to the real issues. Probably better to actually understand where and what the mess is before deciding on who should fix it. And no, that's not a Foster endorsement.
At times we play bloody well and the next week we are crap. One week our tactics are great, the next they aren't, one week Leicester is great, the next he isn't. It's simplistic to put all that down to one man.
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I think we also need to realise that the disconnect between SR and Test rugby is hurting us and not playing SA sides is also hurting. The 6 Nations and European comps seem to be really strong and have helped the NH sides immensely. The fact Ireland and Wales just won for the first time away shows their progress.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I think we also need to realise that the disconnect between SR and Test rugby is hurting us and not playing SA sides is also hurting. The 6 Nations and European comps seem to be really strong and have helped the NH sides immensely. The fact Ireland and Wales just won for the first time away shows their progress.
It’s not rocket science though. Need a game plan. And all those basics you learn as a kid.
Some of the selections are just disheartening. Like Callum Grace has a fantastic finish to SR and is an absolute line out weapon…so we select PGS who started well then faded away badly. His first 2 touches in both tests are simple dropped balls.
There is no way we are winning RWC with foster in charge. A pool loss to France and a quarter final exit to SA or Ire seems a decent bet tbh.
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I think we also need to realise that the disconnect between SR and Test rugby is hurting us and not playing SA sides is also hurting. The 6 Nations and European comps seem to be really strong and have helped the NH sides immensely. The fact Ireland and Wales just won for the first time away shows their progress.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I think we also need to realise that the disconnect between SR and Test rugby is hurting us and not playing SA sides is also hurting. The 6 Nations and European comps seem to be really strong and have helped the NH sides immensely. The fact Ireland and Wales just won for the first time away shows their progress.
Ireland didn’t beat the ABs for over a hundred years….they then got fucken close, and have now won four of the next seven !
That’s a huge turnaround. Sure some of them are a bit whiny and unlikeable but lets be thankful BOD never got a win against the MIB and take our hats off to them for their efforts.
MASSIVE game coming up next weekend.
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so, as the dust is settling, what have we learned? Honestly, not much more than last week.
Ireland are a bloody good side. If they get into their pattern with a ref that's sympathetic, we will really struggle to impose ourselves and score points. Last week we saw our forwards going well, and stressing the defence with the carries and quick recycle. This week we saw a defence waiting to swallow up one off ball runners.
If they make mistakes, we destroy them.
If we make mistakes, we lose.
Cards are a lottery, particularly for reckless to mildly reckless play.
Foster is a mediocre coach and it shows.
We struggle to get up in the forwards consistently.
Test rugby has far less space (see Jordan, Mo'unga, Ioane, Leicester. etc).
Ireland are far better drilled than us, and make outstanding decisions consistently at the ruck. It feels like we're not as rugby smart so often these daysAh, that's a frustrating loss. Without a permanent red card it would have been really interesting - going into halftime only 3 down was ridiculous.
Well played Ireland, good win and a better team on the night.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I think we also need to realise that the disconnect between SR and Test rugby is hurting us and not playing SA sides is also hurting. The 6 Nations and European comps seem to be really strong and have helped the NH sides immensely. The fact Ireland and Wales just won for the first time away shows their progress.
It’s not rocket science though. Need a game plan. And all those basics you learn as a kid.
Some of the selections are just disheartening. Like Callum Grace has a fantastic finish to SR and is an absolute line out weapon…so we select PGS who started well then faded away badly. His first 2 touches in both tests are simple dropped balls.
There is no way we are winning RWC with foster in charge. A pool loss to France and a quarter final exit to SA or Ire seems a decent bet tbh.
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I think we also need to realise that the disconnect between SR and Test rugby is hurting us and not playing SA sides is also hurting. The 6 Nations and European comps seem to be really strong and have helped the NH sides immensely. The fact Ireland and Wales just won for the first time away shows their progress.
It’s not rocket science though. Need a game plan. And all those basics you learn as a kid.
Some of the selections are just disheartening. Like Callum Grace has a fantastic finish to SR and is an absolute line out weapon…so we select PGS who started well then faded away badly. His first 2 touches in both tests are simple dropped balls.
There is no way we are winning RWC with foster in charge. A pool loss to France and a quarter final exit to SA or Ire seems a decent bet tbh.
First ever defeat in the pools? Foster roll of dishonour will just keep on growing! But yeah, that is what I've had in my head since he was appointed, then disgustingly reappointed before NH tour last year. I gave the benefit of the doubt leading up to RWC, dry powder and all, but not anymore. As has been said we need a blues style makeover. NZR can add the bizarre super rugby shit, silver lake debacle, to foster, it needs a clean out
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@Tim said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Didn't see a penalty at the lineout?
The same AR who thought Dalton's one metre clean out was penalty worthy.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Tim said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Didn't see a penalty at the lineout?
The same AR who thought Dalton's one metre clean out was penalty worthy.
That was inventing a penalty for penalty sake. Pretty much a look at me moment.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Why are we bringing on Ross if he's a loosehead?
Have to have two props.
@Mackerzzzz said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Why are we bringing on Ross if he's a loosehead?
Have to have two props.
Why?
Have to have a LH and a TH. It was uncontested as we didn't have a TH.
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@booboo said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
secondly, the red on Gus. That's the worst example of the head contact protocols I've seen. The very definition of unavoidable.
Get outta town! He ran into the ball carrier, actually accelerated towards him and lined him up! The very definition of avoidable!
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
secondly, the red on Gus. That's the worst example of the head contact protocols I've seen. The very definition of unavoidable.
Get outta town! He ran into the ball carrier, actually accelerated towards him and lined him up! The very definition of avoidable!
Stop it Justin
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We may or may not have the cattle and we can't do much about that, but we can do something about the coaching. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see the ABs are not a well coached side.
Internally, compare them to how the Crusaders and Blues look. Players know their roles and generally perform them week in and week out. The ABs often looked confused and seem to be required to play a style that they do not have the skills for at test level.
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@MiketheSnow First event (green): Ofa's yellow card. Second event (orange): Angus' red card. Both TH props. Thought they needed uncontested scrums because they forgot Bower could have been moved to TH. Because they went for uncontested scrums, they needed to lose another player (they chose Ardie). So off were Ofa, Angus and Ardie = 12 players.
@Stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@MiketheSnow First event (green): Ofa's yellow card. Second event (orange): Angus' red card. Both TH props. Thought they needed uncontested scrums because they forgot Bower could have been moved to TH. Because they went for uncontested scrums, they needed to lose another player (they chose Ardie). So off were Ofa, Angus and Ardie = 12 players.
But Angus was Ofa’s replacement, so by position only the TH and the No8 were off = 13 players. From memory Leicester F was already back from Siberia by the time the uncontested scrum was called, so 13 players wasn’t it?
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Be good to start well.
Be good to finish well.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Be good to start well.
Be good to finish well.
Reckon starting well woulda helped us more...sliding doors and all, no YC, RC, YC....at least how they panned out last night...
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Before the fucking Hurricanes fans pile in and go at me because their only 2 all Blacks suck
Irelands first try. Savea is the 2nd tackler. A good loose forward immediately challenges that ball on the ground. No, Ardie reels away for some fucking reason. A quick recycle and we're doomed (shit tackle attempt by WT toi)
He's just not that guy for the tough stuff. He's a cat.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Before the fucking Hurricanes fans pile in and go at me because their only 2 all Blacks suck
Irelands first try. Savea is the 2nd tackler. A good loose forward immediately challenges that ball on the ground. No, Ardie reels away for some fucking reason. A quick recycle and we're doomed (shit tackle attempt by WT toi)
He's just not that guy for the tough stuff. He's a cat.
If a team wants easy meters around the fringes, they run at Ardie. He rides them to the ground allowing the momentum to continue with remarkably little resistance.
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As my mate, who watched it said "Wasn't that we were not up for it once letting them in for first try. Was more a case of: as individual genius can win us games, individual fuck ups can lose us games. Freakishly so. It's like they are all individuals, not a team. Almost like there is no plan or structure to fall back on when individual genius turns to individual fuckwits. That's totally a coaching issue"
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It still looks no better the following day. It's also the continuation of a pattern.
Ian Foster might be a nice guy, but he continues to live the ultimate jobs for the boys dream. And his legacy will be quite a few unwanted All Blacks records as a result.
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@Dan54 nah, it's different in recent years, I barely care any more, I still care when Northland loses, but I find myself not caring about AB losses in recent years...it more about frustration through lack of learning (I can assure you Northland make all of the errors that the national.side do, and more at coaching, selection and play)
I don't know what it is, part maturity maybe....
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Dan54 nah, it's different in recent years, I barely care any more, I still care when Northland loses, but I find myself not caring about AB losses in recent years...it more about frustration through lack of learning (I can assure you Northland make all of the errors that the national.side do, and more at coaching, selection and play)
I don't know what it is, part maturity maybe....
Yep I believe in is maturity etc, my awakening came after SA beat us in 95 WC final, I woke up next day and realised the sun still came up etc. Mind you I a Canes man too so may help, lol. Don't get me wrong I still am one eyed ABs man etc, just not end of world when we lose, and find I enjoy game a bloody sight more because of it.
