The Current State of Rugby
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I'll also add I caught a bit of a Newcastle Knights game the other week and Ponga took a blow to the head and went off for further assessment.
I respect that NRL is a bloody tough slog for players. And I look at guys like Ponga - 24, in his prime, playing against some big lads, with some heavy hitting - and wonder what he'll look like at 44. Or 54.
While Rugby seems to have gone waaaaaay too far on the way it runs player safety frameworks, IMHO the NRL isn't doing enough to protect itself against future lawsuits.
On a related point, which I've made before: World Rugby has a two-speed system where 1) refs are forced to crack down on head contact on the field, but then 2) various Judiciaries don't do their job after the game in handing down sanctions that might contribute to behavioural change. They give discounts for being a top bloke, or "remorse", or a clean record.
Quite frankly, none of that shit should matter when it comes to sentencing high contact, intent or no.
A certain Irish lawyer who used to frequent these parts says that is largely due to ex-players now being on panels. Perhaps that is a good point but I tend to think the Judiciary has been doing this since forever.
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
While Rugby seems to have gone waaaaaay too far on the way it runs player safety frameworks, IMHO the NRL isn't doing enough to protect itself against future lawsuits.
One is a regional sport that only really has to deal with one set of politicians and one legal system. League can always be more permissive.
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@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
While Rugby seems to have gone waaaaaay too far on the way it runs player safety frameworks, IMHO the NRL isn't doing enough to protect itself against future lawsuits.
One is a regional sport that only really has to deal with one set of politicians and one legal system. League can always be more permissive.
@Duluth said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
While Rugby seems to have gone waaaaaay too far on the way it runs player safety frameworks, IMHO the NRL isn't doing enough to protect itself against future lawsuits.
One is a regional sport that only really has to deal with one set of politicians and one legal system. League can always be more permissive.
Good point, however as a smaller sport globally, the NRL doesn't have an endless pot of cash to fight the lawsuits that may emerge.
Maybe it is proportional, I don't know. Maybe there are a few clauses in each contract to take care of it.
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A few other factors:
The influence of league. Particularly in Australia, but also NZ. This is most notable in the discussion around head contact, but also elsewhere. (Obviously league is big in England too, but generally there is a firewall between the two codes. In Australia many people follow both flavours of Rugby; in England, it's either one or the other).
This might be a contentious one, but I also think ignorance of the laws is part of the problem too. I'm thinking of Australia here, since most of the rugby media I see is Australian, but I get the impression that SA is similar. Kiwis on the other hand seem to know their stuff and be a bit more measured. (Obviously I'm generalising massively here, and I might lose Aussie friends, but hey ho...). Lots of Aussies are part time fans, rugby is maybe their 3rd or 4th or 6th favourite sport, so they're understandably not as familiar with the rules. The real problem is that the level of rugby commentary and journalism here is hopeless. Every time some decision goes against the Wallabies, the commentators pretend to be dumbfounded and outraged and shocked at the absurdity of it. Then at half time, the presenters are equally astonished and talk about how ridiculous it is. Then the next day, the newspapers run stories about the dumbest rule in rugby, and how the administrators and refs are killing the game. And the average fan who doesn't really know the laws comes away thinking rugby is a mess. I thought this might get better after we ditched Fox, but it seems 9/Stan have decided to plough the same furrow.
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
but it seems 9/Stan have decided to plough the same furrow.
I genuinely like the Stan coverage of rugby, much better than the turd that was Fox/Kayo (and a much better quality app/stream too), but I don't watch much of the build ups etc. But I don't mind listening to a bit Mehrts and Cheika at half time.
Missed most of the early discussion but I assume the stupid maul laws have been discussed.
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@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
but it seems 9/Stan have decided to plough the same furrow.
I genuinely like the Stan coverage of rugby, much better than the turd that was Fox/Kayo (and a much better quality app/stream too), but I don't watch much of the build ups etc. But I don't mind listening to a bit Mehrts and Cheika at half time.
Missed most of the early discussion but I assume the stupid maul laws have been discussed.
@Nepia said in The Current State of Rugby:
Missed most of the early discussion but I assume the stupid maul laws have been discussed.
God it is badly officiated. They'll spend 10 replays looking for a bit of foul play in the same maul that clearly shows a player is detatched or it was obstruction.
I'll be refereeing XVs for the first time in ages and, besides numbers at lineout (which I hate and think should be tossed from the book), my biggest bugbear is mauls.
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I was thinking that this hyper extreme focus on safety is occurring at the top level where they have 100 cameras and 4 match officials, but the vast majority of games are taking place in parks where reserves from the respective teams are running the touch and the only camera is in a phone being held by a kid in a pram (modern day parenting but that's another story). The incidents causing all these cards at the top level probably happen repeatedly at every other level, but are obviously not picked up because it's logistically and technically impossible. So is the welfare or these players not being considered? Obviously there's a vast gulf in skill and speed, but these types of "card events" will still repeatedly occur and probably much more often. It's a pretty massive disconnect IMHO.
Ultimately, and as I've said a million times, rugby is a brutal and dangerous sport. Obviously you don't want it to be a murderous free for all, but there are limits to how much you can sanitise a game like this. Sometimes you wonder if those instituting the rules every played the game or that they believe everything occurs in slo motion.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Current State of Rugby:
Ultimately, and as I've said a million times, rugby is a brutal and dangerous sport. Obviously you don't want it to be a murderous free for all, but there are limits to how much you can sanitise a game like this. Sometimes you wonder if those instituting the rules every played the game or that they believe everything occurs in slo motion.
This might be an issue . Maybe rugby has become too sanitised. Rugby players are often shown as nice or good guys. And look out if any player isn't off the field (Reece). But now also on it.
Hating the dirty thugs in the opposing team might be good for crowd size. And overall interest.
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@Nepia said in The Current State of Rugby:
Missed most of the early discussion but I assume the stupid maul laws have been discussed.
God it is badly officiated. They'll spend 10 replays looking for a bit of foul play in the same maul that clearly shows a player is detatched or it was obstruction.
I'll be refereeing XVs for the first time in ages and, besides numbers at lineout (which I hate and think should be tossed from the book), my biggest bugbear is mauls.
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Nepia said in The Current State of Rugby:
Missed most of the early discussion but I assume the stupid maul laws have been discussed.
God it is badly officiated. They'll spend 10 replays looking for a bit of foul play in the same maul that clearly shows a player is detatched or it was obstruction.
It's the two chances B/S that really gets to me, and how long a team can just be stationary before winding up and it doesn't count as one of the two chances. Add to that a team can get steamrolled backwards, stop, restart again and go forwards.
Mauls and penalising intercept attempts seem to fly in the face of what rugby generally is which is a contest for the ball.
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@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Nepia said in The Current State of Rugby:
Missed most of the early discussion but I assume the stupid maul laws have been discussed.
God it is badly officiated. They'll spend 10 replays looking for a bit of foul play in the same maul that clearly shows a player is detatched or it was obstruction.
It's the two chances B/S that really gets to me, and how long a team can just be stationary before winding up and it doesn't count as one of the two chances. Add to that a team can get steamrolled backwards, stop, restart again and go forwards.
Mauls and penalising intercept attempts seem to fly in the face of what rugby generally is which is a contest for the ball.
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@Nepia yeah I think it should be amended:
- If your maul goes backwards, use it
- If your maul stops, use it
Otherwise free kick to the defending team
The second bite / five second restart brought mauls back, and now they're havin' a larf.
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Nepia yeah I think it should be amended:
- If your maul goes backwards, use it
- If your maul stops, use it
Otherwise free kick to the defending team
The second bite / five second restart brought mauls back, and now they're havin' a larf.
Worse still is that the mauls become more of a weapon if you stop but absorb pressure from defence then shift your own pressure to the weakest spot. Once that second go starts the defence has to detach and scramble.
Mauls are way too heavily ruled toward the attacking side. -
I think the core issue has to be reducing time where the ball is not in play.
Go back and watch games from the turn of the century and I'd argue it's where rugby was at its peak. Professionalism made for better skills and speed, but the shackles of amateurism hadn't been fully thrown off. One thing that you notice is the speed at which they packed scrums, formed lineouts and took kicks.
Less downtime led to more tired players in the final 20 and a more entertaining game.
I'm surprised World Rugby hasn't tried to fix this as in most cases it doesn't compromise on safety. Speed up players getting to scrums and lineouts. Reduce the time for injuries - either you are up and back or you are off the field. I find the refs I like more do understand this and hurry the players up.
And of course the TM fucking O. Refs need to make quicker decisions and if there is doubt they can reduce the on-field sanction and leave it for the judiciary.
It won't solve all the problems but it will solve some and I do think it's easily achievable.
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@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Nepia yeah I think it should be amended:
- If your maul goes backwards, use it
- If your maul stops, use it
Otherwise free kick to the defending team
The second bite / five second restart brought mauls back, and now they're havin' a larf.
Worse still is that the mauls become more of a weapon if you stop but absorb pressure from defence then shift your own pressure to the weakest spot. Once that second go starts the defence has to detach and scramble.
Mauls are way too heavily ruled toward the attacking side.@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Nepia yeah I think it should be amended:
- If your maul goes backwards, use it
- If your maul stops, use it
Otherwise free kick to the defending team
The second bite / five second restart brought mauls back, and now they're havin' a larf.
Worse still is that the mauls become more of a weapon if you stop but absorb pressure from defence then shift your own pressure to the weakest spot. Once that second go starts the defence has to detach and scramble.
Mauls are way too heavily ruled toward the attacking side.the maul having the advantages it does has a flow on effect to teams basing their whole method of gaining points through it. play territory, and wait for penalties to kick to the corner
Super effective rugby but terrible viewing.
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I think the core issue has to be reducing time where the ball is not in play.
Go back and watch games from the turn of the century and I'd argue it's where rugby was at its peak. Professionalism made for better skills and speed, but the shackles of amateurism hadn't been fully thrown off. One thing that you notice is the speed at which they packed scrums, formed lineouts and took kicks.
Less downtime led to more tired players in the final 20 and a more entertaining game.
I'm surprised World Rugby hasn't tried to fix this as in most cases it doesn't compromise on safety. Speed up players getting to scrums and lineouts. Reduce the time for injuries - either you are up and back or you are off the field. I find the refs I like more do understand this and hurry the players up.
And of course the TM fucking O. Refs need to make quicker decisions and if there is doubt they can reduce the on-field sanction and leave it for the judiciary.
It won't solve all the problems but it will solve some and I do think it's easily achievable.
@barbarian player safety will always trump everything with scrums. And teams will play the "player safety" card all day to get themselves in to their scrum machine set. Look how many times they fucking stand up because someone isn't "comfortable"
throw in the terrible slow cadence from the ref
lineouts should be fixable with a free kick though
it cracks me up that rugby fans love to take shots at the "committee meetings between plays" of NFL when rugby is hardly any better at times.
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@barbarian player safety will always trump everything with scrums. And teams will play the "player safety" card all day to get themselves in to their scrum machine set. Look how many times they fucking stand up because someone isn't "comfortable"
throw in the terrible slow cadence from the ref
lineouts should be fixable with a free kick though
it cracks me up that rugby fans love to take shots at the "committee meetings between plays" of NFL when rugby is hardly any better at times.
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@barbarian player safety will always trump everything with scrums. And teams will play the "player safety" card all day to get themselves in to their scrum machine set. Look how many times they fucking stand up because someone isn't "comfortable"
throw in the terrible slow cadence from the ref
lineouts should be fixable with a free kick though
it cracks me up that rugby fans love to take shots at the "committee meetings between plays" of NFL when rugby is hardly any better at times.
The TMO situation has made rugby as poor a spectacle as I can remember for a long time
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I think the core issue has to be reducing time where the ball is not in play.
Go back and watch games from the turn of the century and I'd argue it's where rugby was at its peak. Professionalism made for better skills and speed, but the shackles of amateurism hadn't been fully thrown off. One thing that you notice is the speed at which they packed scrums, formed lineouts and took kicks.
Less downtime led to more tired players in the final 20 and a more entertaining game.
I'm surprised World Rugby hasn't tried to fix this as in most cases it doesn't compromise on safety. Speed up players getting to scrums and lineouts. Reduce the time for injuries - either you are up and back or you are off the field. I find the refs I like more do understand this and hurry the players up.
And of course the TM fucking O. Refs need to make quicker decisions and if there is doubt they can reduce the on-field sanction and leave it for the judiciary.
It won't solve all the problems but it will solve some and I do think it's easily achievable.
@barbarian said in The Current State of Rugby:
I think the core issue has to be reducing time where the ball is not in play.
Go back and watch games from the turn of the century and I'd argue it's where rugby was at its peak. Professionalism made for better skills and speed, but the shackles of amateurism hadn't been fully thrown off. One thing that you notice is the speed at which they packed scrums, formed lineouts and took kicks.
Less downtime led to more tired players in the final 20 and a more entertaining game.
I'm surprised World Rugby hasn't tried to fix this as in most cases it doesn't compromise on safety. Speed up players getting to scrums and lineouts. Reduce the time for injuries - either you are up and back or you are off the field. I find the refs I like more do understand this and hurry the players up.
And of course the TM fucking O. Refs need to make quicker decisions and if there is doubt they can reduce the on-field sanction and leave it for the judiciary.
It won't solve all the problems but it will solve some and I do think it's easily achievable.
agreed, even in the late 90's the front rows were often semi engaged before their locks were in....its ironic we've slowed things down, allow everyone to get ready etc in an attempt to make things safer...but really it just means we have 8 guys that know exactly when to throw their full weight into the other 8 guys doing the same thing, i think we've made the contact much bigger and arguably more dangerous
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@barbarian said in The Current State of Rugby:
I think the core issue has to be reducing time where the ball is not in play.
Go back and watch games from the turn of the century and I'd argue it's where rugby was at its peak. Professionalism made for better skills and speed, but the shackles of amateurism hadn't been fully thrown off. One thing that you notice is the speed at which they packed scrums, formed lineouts and took kicks.
Less downtime led to more tired players in the final 20 and a more entertaining game.
I'm surprised World Rugby hasn't tried to fix this as in most cases it doesn't compromise on safety. Speed up players getting to scrums and lineouts. Reduce the time for injuries - either you are up and back or you are off the field. I find the refs I like more do understand this and hurry the players up.
And of course the TM fucking O. Refs need to make quicker decisions and if there is doubt they can reduce the on-field sanction and leave it for the judiciary.
It won't solve all the problems but it will solve some and I do think it's easily achievable.
agreed, even in the late 90's the front rows were often semi engaged before their locks were in....its ironic we've slowed things down, allow everyone to get ready etc in an attempt to make things safer...but really it just means we have 8 guys that know exactly when to throw their full weight into the other 8 guys doing the same thing, i think we've made the contact much bigger and arguably more dangerous
@Kiwiwomble I think a lot of it is just a natural evolution as players got bigger and stronger.
Of course you will have more power in your scrum if you are lower. You put Taniela Tupou up against Bill Young and I shudder at what might happen now.
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@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@barbarian player safety will always trump everything with scrums. And teams will play the "player safety" card all day to get themselves in to their scrum machine set. Look how many times they fucking stand up because someone isn't "comfortable"
throw in the terrible slow cadence from the ref
lineouts should be fixable with a free kick though
it cracks me up that rugby fans love to take shots at the "committee meetings between plays" of NFL when rugby is hardly any better at times.
The TMO situation has made rugby as poor a spectacle as I can remember for a long time
@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@barbarian player safety will always trump everything with scrums. And teams will play the "player safety" card all day to get themselves in to their scrum machine set. Look how many times they fucking stand up because someone isn't "comfortable"
throw in the terrible slow cadence from the ref
lineouts should be fixable with a free kick though
it cracks me up that rugby fans love to take shots at the "committee meetings between plays" of NFL when rugby is hardly any better at times.
The TMO situation has made rugby as poor a spectacle as I can remember for a long time
We got what we deserved with all the whinging about ref mistakes.
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Speaking with people at work who you would consider more casual fans, lots of them said they just turned the game off last weekend as it was boring waiting for the TMO pouring over every play looking for indiscretions as well as all the other stoppages in play. And they are right, honestly I tune out for long periods of time when the TMO is involved, or an Irish player has again gone down and a medic is on the field attending to him while everyone just stands around doing nothing.
Watching Origin last night, the difference was stark in terms of the pace of the game. Their TMO took 1 - 2 quick looks at anything referred, made the decision and the game went on. Incidents of foul play were put on report, and the player can be punished after the fact without ruining the spectacle. Yeah they probably don't do enough to protect player welfare, especially in Origin, but they get a lot right in terms of keeping the game moving at speed. It was a far more enjoyable game to watch.
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The TMO stuff would be more bearable if it wasn't for all the other time wasting. Teams having huddles then walking slowly to lineouts? Fuck right off. Free kick them. Not ready to pack down for a scrum in 10 seconds? Free kick. Awarded a penalty? Ref to make the mark and decision made within 5 seconds. Execution other than kick at goal within next 5.
Refs need the balls to speed things up. It totally erodes the respect in them when you hear them pleading for teams to speed up and the teams just ignore them.
I get that no ref wants to be the first but a clear message that it will be done and then no one can argue about it.
I don't know the figures but the Māori game the other night was nearly 2 hours for 2x rugby halves and a halftime break (which should revert to 10 minutes) yet the ball was probably in play for a total of 20 odd minutes.
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rugby's TMO problem is also the process
because it has decided the onfield ref ultimately makes the determination, we have the farce of the 3 onfield refs standing around looking at the big screen, angle by angle, and different speeds
the NRL has the benefit of the bunker. on centralised ref making the call looking at multiple angles and speeds at the same time (not what you see on TV) and making the ruling. way faster
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rugby's TMO problem is also the process
because it has decided the onfield ref ultimately makes the determination, we have the farce of the 3 onfield refs standing around looking at the big screen, angle by angle, and different speeds
the NRL has the benefit of the bunker. on centralised ref making the call looking at multiple angles and speeds at the same time (not what you see on TV) and making the ruling. way faster
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
because it has decided the onfield ref ultimately makes the determination, we have the farce of the 3 onfield refs standing around looking at the big screen, angle by angle, and different speeds
Plus the speaking in code ("Can I show you another angle", "Have you considered the actions of the ball carrier" etc)
Personally I would prefer the TMO to make the call themselves. Their career can live and die on their judgment. Over time good TMO's will rise to the top.
The decisions by committee don't lead to more accurate outcomes and it takes time.
Also I think part of this is arse covering. If all the officials are participate in the decision then none of the refs are ultimately responsible
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@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
because it has decided the onfield ref ultimately makes the determination, we have the farce of the 3 onfield refs standing around looking at the big screen, angle by angle, and different speeds
Plus the speaking in code ("Can I show you another angle", "Have you considered the actions of the ball carrier" etc)
Personally I would prefer the TMO to make the call themselves. Their career can live and die on their judgment. Over time good TMO's will rise to the top.
The decisions by committee don't lead to more accurate outcomes and it takes time.
Also I think part of this is arse covering. If all the officials are participate in the decision then none of the refs are ultimately responsible
@Duluth said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
because it has decided the onfield ref ultimately makes the determination, we have the farce of the 3 onfield refs standing around looking at the big screen, angle by angle, and different speeds
Plus the speaking in code ("Can I show you another angle", "Have you considered the actions of the ball carrier" etc)
Personally I would prefer the TMO to make the call themselves. Their career can live and die on their judgment. Over time good TMO's will rise to the top.
The decisions by committee don't lead to more accurate outcomes and it takes time.
Also I think part of this is arse covering. If all the officials are participate in the decision then none of the refs are ultimately responsible
It used to work like that and the worst refs became TMOs. There were some absolute shockers. Guys with zero feel for the game or common sense were making appalling decisions.
Evidence : George Ayoub and/or Shaun Veldsman
