The Current State of Rugby
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The game has big problems. I've loved rugby my whole life, and I'm struggling to maintain interest.
The proliferation of cards is ruining games. I have no blame for the refs. It's a very difficult game to referee, and even with wholesale simplification of the laws it would remain so. I think that's a given, and the logical solution to ''some things get seen, some things get missed" is to make the consequences of the decisions less major. We've moved in the other direction, and it has been a disaster. An accident shouldn't decide a game, especially when some accidents are ruled on, and some aren't, as that is just a lottery. If you can say for sure that something is deliberate filth, then that should be a red card, as it always has been.
If we are consistently giving cards because multiple penalties aren't sufficient disincentive for a team, then maybe we need to reconsider the amount of points for a penalty vs a try rather than turning it into 14 vs 15.
I'd rather see more penalty tries for failed intercepts than yellow cards.
The TMO for everything has to stop. It just slows the game down too much. The number of in-game rests has to stop. I have taken to recording all but the really big games, and using a '10-second forward' button to skip all the rests, all the scrum prep, all the 'injuries', all the lineout huddles. Games take me about half the time to watch, which is ridiculous. I can watch the whole time the ball is in play in close to the same time as an extended highlights package.
Players are too big. If Ta'avao weighed 100kg instead of 125kg, maybe he's quick enough to avoid that head clash. The impacts all get bigger, and we get more injuries. All the rests and the substitution rules play into this. I just don't see the positives. It's just as entertaining to watch a couple of 90kg guys smash each other, they're usually faster and have better skills, and player safety would be improved. -
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow I am quite surprised with the amount of people on here who clearly have super human reflexes
They’re demigods compared with mere mortals like myself
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow I am quite surprised with the amount of people on here who clearly have super human reflexes
They’re demigods compared with mere mortals like myself
Must be like that Irish loosehead then. Clear line of sight. No dip. Head to head. Probably broke a cheekbone but gets a YC.
Fucked -
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow I am quite surprised with the amount of people on here who clearly have super human reflexes
They’re demigods compared with mere mortals like myself
Must be like that Irish loosehead then. Clear line of sight. No dip. Head to head. Probably broke a cheekbone but gets a YC.
Fucked@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow I am quite surprised with the amount of people on here who clearly have super human reflexes
They’re demigods compared with mere mortals like myself
Must be like that Irish loosehead then. Clear line of sight. No dip. Head to head. Probably broke a cheekbone but gets a YC.
FuckedThat astonished me. But in this thread, raises the consistency issue... Week to week it's fundamental difference in interpretation
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@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow I am quite surprised with the amount of people on here who clearly have super human reflexes
They’re demigods compared with mere mortals like myself
Must be like that Irish loosehead then. Clear line of sight. No dip. Head to head. Probably broke a cheekbone but gets a YC.
FuckedThat astonished me. But in this thread, raises the consistency issue... Week to week it's fundamental difference in interpretation
@nzzp said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow I am quite surprised with the amount of people on here who clearly have super human reflexes
They’re demigods compared with mere mortals like myself
Must be like that Irish loosehead then. Clear line of sight. No dip. Head to head. Probably broke a cheekbone but gets a YC.
FuckedThat astonished me. But in this thread, raises the consistency issue... Week to week it's fundamental difference in interpretation
That’s the problem
And it’s not a NH v SH thing
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@nzzp said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow I am quite surprised with the amount of people on here who clearly have super human reflexes
They’re demigods compared with mere mortals like myself
Must be like that Irish loosehead then. Clear line of sight. No dip. Head to head. Probably broke a cheekbone but gets a YC.
FuckedThat astonished me. But in this thread, raises the consistency issue... Week to week it's fundamental difference in interpretation
That’s the problem
And it’s not a NH v SH thing
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@nzzp said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow I am quite surprised with the amount of people on here who clearly have super human reflexes
They’re demigods compared with mere mortals like myself
Must be like that Irish loosehead then. Clear line of sight. No dip. Head to head. Probably broke a cheekbone but gets a YC.
FuckedThat astonished me. But in this thread, raises the consistency issue... Week to week it's fundamental difference in interpretation
That’s the problem
And it’s not a NH v SH thing
Correct. It's not just this, just random changes week to week that leave everyone trying to figure out what the laws are
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I have to say I thought there were 2 red cards from Ireland tonight that were more culpable than Ta'avao's last week.
I get that the first one was missed but I cannot understand how the guy who colided with Brodies' face didn't get a Red Card.
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@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.The RWC is a separate competition that generates revenue outside of the 6N. If it just becomes another 6N but without the history then it'd be massively devalued. I really don't think they'd want to fuck it up.
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@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.The RWC is a separate competition that generates revenue outside of the 6N. If it just becomes another 6N but without the history then it'd be massively devalued. I really don't think they'd want to fuck it up.
@No-Quarter said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.The RWC is a separate competition that generates revenue outside of the 6N. If it just becomes another 6N but without the history then it'd be massively devalued. I really don't think they'd want to fuck it up.
They'd love to see France or Ireland win the 2023 RWC for the first time
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I have to say I thought there were 2 red cards from Ireland tonight that were more culpable than Ta'avao's last week.
I get that the first one was missed but I cannot understand how the guy who colided with Brodies' face didn't get a Red Card.
@Damo said in The Current State of Rugby:
I have to say I thought there were 2 red cards from Ireland tonight that were more culpable than Ta'avao's last week.
I get that the first one was missed but I cannot understand how the guy who colided with Brodies' face didn't get a Red Card.
It's just farcical at the moment. Nobody would claim that Foster's ABs deserved to win and were robbed, but that sort of inconsistency in refereeing brings the game into disrepute.
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@No-Quarter said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.The RWC is a separate competition that generates revenue outside of the 6N. If it just becomes another 6N but without the history then it'd be massively devalued. I really don't think they'd want to fuck it up.
They'd love to see France or Ireland win the 2023 RWC for the first time
@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@No-Quarter said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.The RWC is a separate competition that generates revenue outside of the 6N. If it just becomes another 6N but without the history then it'd be massively devalued. I really don't think they'd want to fuck it up.
They'd love to see France or Ireland win the 2023 RWC for the first time
Oi
What about us?
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@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@No-Quarter said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.The RWC is a separate competition that generates revenue outside of the 6N. If it just becomes another 6N but without the history then it'd be massively devalued. I really don't think they'd want to fuck it up.
They'd love to see France or Ireland win the 2023 RWC for the first time
Oi
What about us?
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@No-Quarter said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.The RWC is a separate competition that generates revenue outside of the 6N. If it just becomes another 6N but without the history then it'd be massively devalued. I really don't think they'd want to fuck it up.
They'd love to see France or Ireland win the 2023 RWC for the first time
Oi
What about us?
Yeah you lot too
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@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
What has become apparent (well, what has been rammed home really) in the past 10 days is that rugby has allowed itself to become a sport where the refereeing panel are no longer just there to facilitate the game and allow it to happen, but have become nearly the most important people on the pitch (or box). Rugby is no longer about 30 players, it is about 30 players, and 4 officials whose remit has become sanctioning every single act on the field to its fullest extent.
The term rugby accident no longer has any meaning. Angus Ta'avao got his face caved in and got a red card. LF was in the air and got a yellow. In the England v Australia game two attempted intercepts got two players binned. Papali'i got penalised for a perfect cleanout because the touchie thought something else happened and had to get on the pitch.
Rugby is obsessed with getting people off the pitch. In a game defined by the fact it is a constant contest, players are sent from the field for contesting. Cards are flying thick and fast. AWJ got carded for absolutely nothing but suspicion on the weekend. How is that in any way acceptable?
And i absolutely do not blame the referees even one bit. This comes down to the lawmakers, their guidelines, and the instructions given to their referees. This is the game World Rugby want. Every controversial incident is met with a new, far stricter than required guideline in case it happens again. And that guidelines normally involves another player off the pitch. Professional Rugby is, above all else, a form of entertainment, and yet here we have a governing body obsessed with actively degrading their product, to appease who?
And yet, for some, they do not go far enough. Look at the chat in rugby media after every test. "this is a disgrace, there should have been more cards!! that card wasn't harsh enough, it should have been red!" every single fucking week. Pre-game the focus is on the ref, and what they should look at. Post-game the focus is on the ref, and what they misses, and who else should have been sent from the field.
I have heard more about Jaco in the press than the fucking players over the past couple of days. In what world is that the best outcome?
Long time fans are becoming more and more disillusioned. Casual fans are turning it off. And the response will probably e another crack down and more cards. Awesome.
i honestly believe that we'd have less issues with things like AT head knock if we didn't see cards for all the much more trivial things, failed intercepts, repeated minor offenses like off sides...but also NOT seeing them for the early tackle...its all bloody guess work
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
What has become apparent (well, what has been rammed home really) in the past 10 days is that rugby has allowed itself to become a sport where the refereeing panel are no longer just there to facilitate the game and allow it to happen, but have become nearly the most important people on the pitch (or box). Rugby is no longer about 30 players, it is about 30 players, and 4 officials whose remit has become sanctioning every single act on the field to its fullest extent.
The term rugby accident no longer has any meaning. Angus Ta'avao got his face caved in and got a red card. LF was in the air and got a yellow. In the England v Australia game two attempted intercepts got two players binned. Papali'i got penalised for a perfect cleanout because the touchie thought something else happened and had to get on the pitch.
Rugby is obsessed with getting people off the pitch. In a game defined by the fact it is a constant contest, players are sent from the field for contesting. Cards are flying thick and fast. AWJ got carded for absolutely nothing but suspicion on the weekend. How is that in any way acceptable?
And i absolutely do not blame the referees even one bit. This comes down to the lawmakers, their guidelines, and the instructions given to their referees. This is the game World Rugby want. Every controversial incident is met with a new, far stricter than required guideline in case it happens again. And that guidelines normally involves another player off the pitch. Professional Rugby is, above all else, a form of entertainment, and yet here we have a governing body obsessed with actively degrading their product, to appease who?
And yet, for some, they do not go far enough. Look at the chat in rugby media after every test. "this is a disgrace, there should have been more cards!! that card wasn't harsh enough, it should have been red!" every single fucking week. Pre-game the focus is on the ref, and what they should look at. Post-game the focus is on the ref, and what they misses, and who else should have been sent from the field.
I have heard more about Jaco in the press than the fucking players over the past couple of days. In what world is that the best outcome?
Long time fans are becoming more and more disillusioned. Casual fans are turning it off. And the response will probably e another crack down and more cards. Awesome.
i honestly believe that we'd have less issues with things like AT head knock if we didn't see cards for all the much more trivial things, failed intercepts, repeated minor offences like off sides...but also NOT seeing them for the early tackle...its all bloody guess work
I'd suggest its the opposite - the IRB has decided that they need to protect the head and have used disciplinary actions (yellow/red cards) to try and eliminate any head knocks. Sounds fine in theory...
In practice, accidental/unavoidable head hits are much more common than the IRB have been willing to admit (publicly at least) and deliberate head hits continue to go unpunished leading to the perception of unfairness. This is exacerbated by the rules placing the responsibility of the tackled players safety on the tackler in-spite 70% of head injury assessments in elite RU from tackle situations being experienced by the tackler and 30% by the ball carrier (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348701038_Genetic_Factors_That_Could_Affect_Concussion_Risk_in_Elite_Rugby). This is backed up by the number of HIA's per 1000 hours of elite rugby has increasing over the last 10 years in-spite of the rule changes and the rate of increase is higher than Rugby League over the same period.
On top of that, the social media comments would suggest fans want the cards to disadvantage the opposition. Se we move away from a game of rugby being played and instead the focus is on the ref/TMO and the hoped for cards.
I acknowledge there will continue to be a place for red and yellow cards in preventing HIA's for clear foul play, but other remedies such as reducing the number of subs will likely have a bigger impact in bringing the number of HIA's down as it reduces the mismatch in fatigue levels that results in many of the more severe HIA's. For cards, my preference would be clearer mitigating circumstances around the dynamic nature of tackles - for instance I do not believe any player tries to tackle an opponent face-on-face so changing that from a likely red card to a penalty reduces the effort to decide punishment and allows TMO interventions to become less common and in the process allows the game to be played rather than just "refereed".
Basically, the current rules are changing rugby as a game with minimal benefit for elite players (it may differ at other levels but I haven't seen the stats to show differing outcomes). Or I'm old and grouchy. Or both.
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@No-Quarter said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.The RWC is a separate competition that generates revenue outside of the 6N. If it just becomes another 6N but without the history then it'd be massively devalued. I really don't think they'd want to fuck it up.
They'd love to see France or Ireland win the 2023 RWC for the first time
@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@No-Quarter said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.The RWC is a separate competition that generates revenue outside of the 6N. If it just becomes another 6N but without the history then it'd be massively devalued. I really don't think they'd want to fuck it up.
They'd love to see France or Ireland win the 2023 RWC for the first time
Likely quarters (top of group first):
France vs Ireland
South Africa vs New Zealand
Australia vs Argentina
England vs WalesThe pool A/B games may be reversed (France vs South Africa/New Zealand vs Ireland) but I don't see any alternatives making the top 2.
For pool C/D maybe Japan can sneak in ahead of Argentina or Wales can top pool C but I don't think we will see a France vs Ireland final.
I'd favour Australia/England to make one of the final spots just because they will avoid playing two of France/Ireland/New Zealand/South Africa.
