The Current State of Rugby
-
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
intentionally
comes back to interpretation again....ref/TMo deciding they know what the player intended.
Assigning intention never used to be a problem back in the dim, dark days when the referee was the sole judge of fact. As we’ve watered down refs’ sole responsibility and authority we’ve ironically increased the scrutiny on them and the expectations of infallibility.
I honestly think the days when refs made mistakes but we respected that anyway were better. We didn’t need TMOs, we just needed refs who would say “my call, no try” and players and fans mature enough to respect that.
I mean, Bob Deans was clearly robbed by that incompetent fluffybunny Dallas but do we go on about it?
@JC the “stakes” are so much higher today. You only have to look at the discussion the past few days around Silverlake etc. So the pressure to ‘get it right’ and the constant need to reassure the public that things are under control with game integrity and safety.
And yes Deans scored
-
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gt12 already a rule about that...not sure how they'd change it further without compromising the game further
It would only require an interpreatation change.
"An offside player must not intentionally obstruct an opponent or interfere with play."
As soon as the ball is passed behind a forward runner those runners are offside. Interference with play could mean contact with players trying to move toward the ball carrier (irrespective of ability to tackle) i.e. blocking running lines or visibility of the ball carrier and their actions.
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gt12 already a rule about that...not sure how they'd change it further without compromising the game further
It would only require an interpreatation change.
"An offside player must not intentionally obstruct an opponent or interfere with play."
As soon as the ball is passed behind a forward runner those runners are offside. Interference with play could mean contact with players trying to move toward the ball carrier (irrespective of ability to tackle) i.e. blocking running lines or visibility of the ball carrier and their actions.
Unfortunately love it or hate it blockers are part of the modern game and Ireland are far far better at it then we are and is one of the reasons they create so much confusion for our D line. Smart teams bend the rules and bad ones complain about them.
-
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gt12 already a rule about that...not sure how they'd change it further without compromising the game further
It would only require an interpreatation change.
"An offside player must not intentionally obstruct an opponent or interfere with play."
As soon as the ball is passed behind a forward runner those runners are offside. Interference with play could mean contact with players trying to move toward the ball carrier (irrespective of ability to tackle) i.e. blocking running lines or visibility of the ball carrier and their actions.
Unfortunately love it or hate it blockers are part of the modern game and Ireland are far far better at it then we are and is one of the reasons they create so much confusion for our D line. Smart teams bend the rules and bad ones complain about them.
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gt12 already a rule about that...not sure how they'd change it further without compromising the game further
It would only require an interpreatation change.
"An offside player must not intentionally obstruct an opponent or interfere with play."
As soon as the ball is passed behind a forward runner those runners are offside. Interference with play could mean contact with players trying to move toward the ball carrier (irrespective of ability to tackle) i.e. blocking running lines or visibility of the ball carrier and their actions.
Unfortunately love it or hate it blockers are part of the modern game and Ireland are far far better at it then we are and is one of the reasons they create so much confusion for our D line. Smart teams bend the rules and bad ones complain about them.
True, but again, this thread isn't about the ABs. It is about the current state of the game and whether the laws and/or the application of them is producing a good game both to play and to watch.
My question is whether in a pro environment with time and resource to plan and train forward runner plays the game looks more like NFL at times and also adds an avenue for errors, penalties and cards -
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gt12 already a rule about that...not sure how they'd change it further without compromising the game further
It would only require an interpreatation change.
"An offside player must not intentionally obstruct an opponent or interfere with play."
As soon as the ball is passed behind a forward runner those runners are offside. Interference with play could mean contact with players trying to move toward the ball carrier (irrespective of ability to tackle) i.e. blocking running lines or visibility of the ball carrier and their actions.
Unfortunately love it or hate it blockers are part of the modern game and Ireland are far far better at it then we are and is one of the reasons they create so much confusion for our D line. Smart teams bend the rules and bad ones complain about them.
True, but again, this thread isn't about the ABs. It is about the current state of the game and whether the laws and/or the application of them is producing a good game both to play and to watch.
My question is whether in a pro environment with time and resource to plan and train forward runner plays the game looks more like NFL at times and also adds an avenue for errors, penalties and cards@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
My question is whether in a pro environment with time and resource to plan and train forward runner plays the game looks more like NFL at times and also adds an avenue for errors, penalties and cards
i don't think so. i think ones with proper obstructions get pulled up.
-
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
My question is whether in a pro environment with time and resource to plan and train forward runner plays the game looks more like NFL at times and also adds an avenue for errors, penalties and cards
i don't think so. i think ones with proper obstructions get pulled up.
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
My question is whether in a pro environment with time and resource to plan and train forward runner plays the game looks more like NFL at times and also adds an avenue for errors, penalties and cards
i don't think so. i think ones with proper obstructions get pulled up.
What constitutes a 'proper obstruction'? Last week we had an example of a player trying to get across to where the ball was and having to run around a line of blockers that reduced his visibility and reaction time. When he got into the clear his reaction time was so little that he was collided with and red carded. The law doesn't take this into account .
My biggest gripe is forward runners that continue to be in front of the ball after the ball has left the area but 'block' the ability for other players to move where they want.
Maybe there needs to be an obligation to retreat as soon as you are put offside? -
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
My question is whether in a pro environment with time and resource to plan and train forward runner plays the game looks more like NFL at times and also adds an avenue for errors, penalties and cards
i don't think so. i think ones with proper obstructions get pulled up.
What constitutes a 'proper obstruction'? Last week we had an example of a player trying to get across to where the ball was and having to run around a line of blockers that reduced his visibility and reaction time. When he got into the clear his reaction time was so little that he was collided with and red carded. The law doesn't take this into account .
My biggest gripe is forward runners that continue to be in front of the ball after the ball has left the area but 'block' the ability for other players to move where they want.
Maybe there needs to be an obligation to retreat as soon as you are put offside?@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
My question is whether in a pro environment with time and resource to plan and train forward runner plays the game looks more like NFL at times and also adds an avenue for errors, penalties and cards
i don't think so. i think ones with proper obstructions get pulled up.
What constitutes a 'proper obstruction'? Last week we had an example of a player trying to get across to where the ball was and having to run around a line of blockers that reduced his visibility and reaction time. When he got into the clear his reaction time was so little that he was collided with and red carded. The law doesn't take this into account .
My biggest gripe is forward runners that continue to be in front of the ball after the ball has left the area but 'block' the ability for other players to move where they want.
Maybe there needs to be an obligation to retreat as soon as you are put offside?That's the way it works with a kick, right. So, how come those guys can continue to move forward once they are past the ball?
-
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
My question is whether in a pro environment with time and resource to plan and train forward runner plays the game looks more like NFL at times and also adds an avenue for errors, penalties and cards
i don't think so. i think ones with proper obstructions get pulled up.
What constitutes a 'proper obstruction'? Last week we had an example of a player trying to get across to where the ball was and having to run around a line of blockers that reduced his visibility and reaction time. When he got into the clear his reaction time was so little that he was collided with and red carded. The law doesn't take this into account .
My biggest gripe is forward runners that continue to be in front of the ball after the ball has left the area but 'block' the ability for other players to move where they want.
Maybe there needs to be an obligation to retreat as soon as you are put offside?That's the way it works with a kick, right. So, how come those guys can continue to move forward once they are past the ball?
@gt12 said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
My question is whether in a pro environment with time and resource to plan and train forward runner plays the game looks more like NFL at times and also adds an avenue for errors, penalties and cards
i don't think so. i think ones with proper obstructions get pulled up.
What constitutes a 'proper obstruction'? Last week we had an example of a player trying to get across to where the ball was and having to run around a line of blockers that reduced his visibility and reaction time. When he got into the clear his reaction time was so little that he was collided with and red carded. The law doesn't take this into account .
My biggest gripe is forward runners that continue to be in front of the ball after the ball has left the area but 'block' the ability for other players to move where they want.
Maybe there needs to be an obligation to retreat as soon as you are put offside?That's the way it works with a kick, right. So, how come those guys can continue to move forward once they are past the ball?
Because unless they directly block a tackle they are never pulled up.
-
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
My question is whether in a pro environment with time and resource to plan and train forward runner plays the game looks more like NFL at times and also adds an avenue for errors, penalties and cards
i don't think so. i think ones with proper obstructions get pulled up.
What constitutes a 'proper obstruction'? Last week we had an example of a player trying to get across to where the ball was and having to run around a line of blockers that reduced his visibility and reaction time. When he got into the clear his reaction time was so little that he was collided with and red carded. The law doesn't take this into account .
My biggest gripe is forward runners that continue to be in front of the ball after the ball has left the area but 'block' the ability for other players to move where they want.
Maybe there needs to be an obligation to retreat as soon as you are put offside? -
@Crucial they only impeded LFs line of sight, not physically, if he had his wits about him he should have clattered into the blocker in the direction the ball was moving, may have drawn a penlty.
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial they only impeded LFs line of sight, not physically, if he had his wits about him he should have clattered into the blocker in the direction the ball was moving, may have drawn a penlty.
I was talking about Angus.
-
@Crucial It’s a legitimate point. When we hear Peyper saying that the tackler has the greater responsibility isn’t that presuming that the team in possession isn’t manufacturing the environment where uncontrolled collisions are more likely?
@JC said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial It’s a legitimate point. When we hear Peyper saying that the tackler has the greater responsibility isn’t that presuming that the team in possession isn’t manufacturing the environment where uncontrolled collisions are more likely?
It's a bit like the old Brumbies Larkham days. Larkham would 'trick' players into having to decide if he had passed or not by turning his back.
I remember the ref telling him once, after being flattened from behind without the ball, 'you created that, you take it' -
@Nepia sadly league deals with a number of things better than rugby now, and yet we seem to have only replicated a few of thier rules so far...
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Nepia sadly league deals with a number of things better than rugby now, and yet we seem to have only replicated a few of thier rules so far...
I’m not particularly fond of the ones we have replicated either … but would like some others.
-
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@booboo and yet, if you do knock an intercept pass down, you ARE doing it deliberately solely to stop the play as you have zero chance to regather one you knock down, while if you propelled it upwards, which invariably given your momentum will see it go forward, you are in fact doing so with the intention to regather...just because you misjudged how far you could stretch or mis timed your flick, YC!
That's my take anyway, and I guess that is part of the problem, others see the same scenario differently.
Agree. Nigel Owens explanation is very clear but is is an explanation of how they rule it not what the law says. The two differ so there will always be problems until that is fixed.
The old 'you have to play by the laws except where we have decided something else' mess.If this is how they want things then write it in the law book. e.g. a player must not knock the ball forward intentionally to disrupt play or while attempting an intercept. Penalty
The YC only comes out when considered a cynical offence or a PT.
Simples.
Separates the 'intentional knock on' from the intercept which is the sticking point.
My problem with this though is that it completely dumbs down the game and makes intercepts a high risk option handing an advantage to the team in possession. The game is meant to be about contesting possession legally and intercepting the pass is legal.
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
My problem with this though is that it completely dumbs down the game and makes intercepts a high risk option handing an advantage to the team in possession. The game is meant to be about contesting possession legally and intercepting the pass is legal.
So do it right and you won't get penalised? Same as tackling innit?
-
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.I talk to club rugby guys all the time here.
They all agree there are colossal problems and fear for the game.
@MajorRage said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
Surely the customers should dictate how a professional organisation structures its product. If you don't have people watching then your revenue is going to drop.
The 6N sells out stadiums every year.
Club rugby in Europe enjoys rude health.
I don't think they see a problem.I talk to club rugby guys all the time here.
They all agree there are colossal problems and fear for the game.
What are the problems that people see up north? I can guess what they might be but I am really curious to hear what they are and if they are different to the issues seen down south.
-
in terms of state of the rugby, the thing that keeps bouncing around my brain is that for a lot of professionals, modern rugby is playing the ref more than playing the actual game. Its not trying to come up with smart plays necessarily, it's trying to manufacture penalties or cards to try something high risk and/or get an advantage.
The advantage interpretation doesn't help. We should get 3 phases, and if you're not getting or about to get an advantage, blow it up and come back. 20 phases and come back for a penalty? Fark that shit sucks.
Finally, 20 m and possession has to be advantage. It's what you get if you kick to the sideline (and that's only a chance at possession). Would help to keep the game moving, reduce teh size of players, etc.
There's a lot broken in the sport at the moment.
-
in terms of state of the rugby, the thing that keeps bouncing around my brain is that for a lot of professionals, modern rugby is playing the ref more than playing the actual game. Its not trying to come up with smart plays necessarily, it's trying to manufacture penalties or cards to try something high risk and/or get an advantage.
The advantage interpretation doesn't help. We should get 3 phases, and if you're not getting or about to get an advantage, blow it up and come back. 20 phases and come back for a penalty? Fark that shit sucks.
Finally, 20 m and possession has to be advantage. It's what you get if you kick to the sideline (and that's only a chance at possession). Would help to keep the game moving, reduce teh size of players, etc.
There's a lot broken in the sport at the moment.
-
@nzzp said in The Current State of Rugby:
Finally, 20 m and possession has to be advantage. It's what you get if you kick to the sideline
I like this, it's like every other team also has Barrett/Mounga/Hunt kicking for them.
@Bones said in The Current State of Rugby:
@nzzp said in The Current State of Rugby:
Finally, 20 m and possession has to be advantage. It's what you get if you kick to the sideline
I like this, it's like every other team also has Barrett/Mounga/Hunt kicking for them.
And a bonus for those with Josh Ioane
-
in terms of state of the rugby, the thing that keeps bouncing around my brain is that for a lot of professionals, modern rugby is playing the ref more than playing the actual game. Its not trying to come up with smart plays necessarily, it's trying to manufacture penalties or cards to try something high risk and/or get an advantage.
The advantage interpretation doesn't help. We should get 3 phases, and if you're not getting or about to get an advantage, blow it up and come back. 20 phases and come back for a penalty? Fark that shit sucks.
Finally, 20 m and possession has to be advantage. It's what you get if you kick to the sideline (and that's only a chance at possession). Would help to keep the game moving, reduce teh size of players, etc.
There's a lot broken in the sport at the moment.
@nzzp said in The Current State of Rugby:
The advantage interpretation doesn't help. We should get 3 phases, and if you're not getting or about to get an advantage, blow it up and come back. 20 phases and come back for a penalty? Fark that shit sucks.
Especially if in the 22, you keep getting a new advantage, then the opposition get a warning, then they take a scrum or lineout, run through phases hoping to draw another penalty and that YC you said teams seem to play for...
