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To complicate matters further... I watched something recently where some 'disabled' dude wanted to be able to compete in the Olympics against 'non-disabled'...
I think he was a long-jumper?
And had a prosthetic leg.
A prosthetic leg that was literally a fucking spring.
He's gonna nail the "Open" class. So then... Olympics categories become... "Open", "non-prosthetic-with-birth-dick", "non-prosthetic-with-birth-vagina", "non-prosthetic-who-tested-below-testerone-level-X-at-age-12", etc -
@broughie said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@JC You’re right that he can call himself whatever he wants to but Thomas is biologically male whether he likes it or not. No amount of hormones and bodily reconstruction can change this. He has invited criticism but competing against females with an unfair advantage. Thomas knows this whether he admits to it or not. Trans athletes have injected themselves into these situations where common sense dictates it is wrong. Trans athletes should create their own competitions and not disrupt biological norms of competition.
As I said I don’t agree with their right to compete, and I also admit that he may be a bit cynical in what they’re doing. But that’s not my point, which is that you can make all of those arguments without being a dick about it.
Putting “transgender” and “Lia” in quotes are unnecessary provocations. Lia Thomas considers herself to be a transgender woman, which is her right. She calls herself Lia, which is as uncontroversial as me saying call me Bob.
I can disagree that a trans woman is identical to a natal woman - which I do - or that trans women should be able to compete against natal women - which I do - without denigrating Lia Thomas or other trans people or insinuating that they are all charlatans. And so can the author.
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@JC I get where you are coming from and if I met him I would call him Lia and be friendly but if I was there where he won that NCAA event I would have made a statement. Turned my back perhaps.
TownHall is a conservative rag whose audience is what it is. Conservative media is a minority compared to liberal media. Conservatives are slammed with far worse, for differences in opinion, than your concerns in this article. Disagreement results in the typical name-calling with any “phobe” suffix that can be added.
So the conservative side in the States has started to push back. Right or wrong but the bear has been poke and quiet hard working people are expressing themselves more and not accepting someone saying the sky is red when it is not. The Dems will be displaced this election cycle because they don’t support common sense ideas.
So this is the context. This is why Trump was popular because he fought back. Not always in the kindest way. That is why I would prefer DeSantis. He is confrontational without being nasty.
Appreciate your thoughts and we really are not far apart.
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@ploughboy said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
thought i would add this story here.
A hamilton netball club have a trans player playing for them in the premier grade. that player punched another player in a game . she/it/them received a two week ban.Two week ban for pucnhing in a non contact sport? Jesus.
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@ploughboy said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
thought i would add this story here.
A hamilton netball club have a trans player playing for them in the premier grade. that player punched another player in a game . she/it/them received a two week ban.Not to mention blokes can usually hit harder than women.
Shit, is it sexist/bigoted/misogynistic of me to say that ? I hope not !!!!
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I get where people come from talking about "open" categories and split them up by weight etc, but the male/female categories are by far the most important. An 80kg male is stronger than an 80kg female basically every time. The top male atheletes outperform the top female atheletes by some margin, there's no overlap between the sexes at all at that level.
So whatever way you split an open category it's still going to be absolutely dominated by men, you will just kill off any chance of a female playing professional sport.
But maybe that needs to happen before females take more of a stand. Really they should be refusing to play against trans females altogether, but I believe overall females are actually more supportive of them competing than men are. So until more females take a stand this will just continue to happen.
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@No-Quarter There's plenty of females taking a stand. From what I've been watching, the tide is turning.
I always suggested the open and female categories, because on the surface it provided trans opportunities to participate. The reality is it prevented them from interfering in women's sport.
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@antipodean yeah there is more and more taking a stand, my comment was referring to 1) studies show women are more supportive of trans athletes overall than men, and 2) the only way for this madness to end is for women to actually refuse to compete against them, as it doesn't appear many sporting bodies have the balls to draw a line in the sand.
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@No-Quarter said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
@antipodean yeah there is more and more taking a stand, my comment was referring to 1) studies show women are more supportive of trans athletes overall than men, and 2) the only way for this madness to end is for women to actually refuse to compete against them, as it doesn't appear many sporting bodies have the balls to draw a line in the sand.
Re point 2, I don't think women refusing to compete against male-bodied athletes will work for the simple reason that for many trans activists this isn't about the sports at all. It's about acceptance that trans women are women, full stop. Agreeing to an open class would be a concession on that argument, which for them is the red line. I think that in the minds of many activists they would rather all sports goes on the bonfire than they give up ground on the fundamental principle that there should be no differentiation between a trans woman and a natal woman, so refusing to compete would mean they shrug and say OK let the sport die.
I think we also need to consider the possibility that there may be a significant overlap between people who are trans activists and people who believe that competitive sport is irrelevant or even damaging.
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@JC said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Re point 2, I don't think women refusing to compete against male-bodied athletes will work for the simple reason that for many trans activists this isn't about the sports at all. It's about acceptance that trans women are women, full stop. Agreeing to an open class would be a concession on that argument, which for them is the red line. I think that in the minds of many activists they would rather all sports goes on the bonfire than they give up ground on the fundamental principle that there should be no differentiation between a trans woman and a natal woman, so refusing to compete would mean they shrug and say OK let the sport die.
I think we also need to consider the possibility that there may be a significant overlap between people who are trans activists and people who believe that competitive sport is irrelevant or even damaging.
Agree entirely. The activists are the real poison in the whole debate. Seemingly think they live in a society where everybody else is wrong, they are right, and anybody who disagrees must be destroyed.
They are best completely ignored if you ask me. There is a reason why so few actual trans woman get involved in these debates.
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Trans women in rugby: 'I've been cleaned out by 5ft 4in girls – how can I be dangerous?'
Alix Fitzgerald was a member of East London RFC, but the RFU's ban on players 'assigned male at birth' in female rugby ended her career
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Whilst you can feel sorry for her on an individual basis, the bigger picture is far more important and BTW I realise you’re not arguing differently
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Trans women in rugby: 'I've been cleaned out by 5ft 4in girls – how can I be dangerous?'
Alix Fitzgerald was a member of East London RFC, but the RFU's ban on players 'assigned male at birth' in female rugby ended her career
How many 54 year old woman currently play full physical rugby?
Taking a look at the photo down on the article she comes across to me as living proof that the ruiing is correct. Clearly a superior physical specimen based on her gender. And she looks as though she's 30 years older than most of her team mates.
I'm really bored of this debate and these sort of articles. I lost both my cornea's when before I was 22 due to a disease and Ive been unable to play contact sport since then. I don't see this as any different. You can't always get what you want.
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@Catogrande said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Whilst you can feel sorry for her on an individual basis, the bigger picture is far more important and BTW I realise you’re not arguing differently
I just thought it one of the more balanced articles which raised some interesting issues - both personal and game-wide.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Trans women in rugby: 'I've been cleaned out by 5ft 4in girls – how can I be dangerous?'
Alix Fitzgerald was a member of East London RFC, but the RFU's ban on players 'assigned male at birth' in female rugby ended her career
Take up reffing
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@MiketheSnow said in Trans in sport / Laurel Hubbard:
Take up reffing
It was the RFU reaching out and suggesting just that to the Trans player which caught my eye.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
Stuff
