All Blacks v Argentina II
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All Blacks to play Argentina at FMG Stadium Waikato,
Hamilton, Saturday 3 September 20221-George Bower
2-George Bell*
3-Owen Franks
4-Luke Romano
5-Sam Whitelock (c)
6-Scott Barrett
7-Billy Harmon*
8-Ardie Savea**
9-Mitchell Drummond
10-Richie Mo’unga
11-Leicester Fainga’anuku
12-David Havili
13-Braydon Ennor
14-Sevu Reece
15-Will Jordan*debut
**undroppable@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
All Blacks to play Argentina at FMG Stadium Waikato,
Hamilton, Saturday 3 September 20221-George Bower
2-George Bell*
3-Owen Franks
4-Luke Romano
5-Sam Whitelock (c)
6-Scott Barrett
7-Billy Harmon*
8-Ardie Savea**
9-Mitchell Drummond
10-Richie Mo’unga
11-Leicester Fainga’anuku
12-David Havili
13-Braydon Ennor
14-Sevu Reece
15-Will Jordan*debut
**undroppable:face_vomiting:
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At the bottom of the press release
Owen Franks and Luke Romano return because experience matters. The NZ U20s captain George Bell will make his debut because he’s building nicely. Billy Harmon comes in on the back of a couple of NPC games.
Not considered due to injury Ethan Blackadder, Cullen Grace, Joe Moody.
Not considered George Bridge, Codie Taylor
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
All Blacks to play Argentina at FMG Stadium Waikato,
Hamilton, Saturday 3 September 20221-George Bower
2-George Bell*
3-Owen Franks
4-Luke Romano
5-Sam Whitelock (c)
6-Scott Barrett
7-Billy Harmon*
8-Ardie Savea**
9-Mitchell Drummond
10-Richie Mo’unga
11-Leicester Fainga’anuku
12-David Havili
13-Braydon Ennor
14-Sevu Reece
15-Will Jordan*debut
**undroppable:face_vomiting:
@JK ABs by 20
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Let's start by remembering we should have won on Saturday, and that our starting tight five did a number on Pumas.
Ofa, Nepo and BBBR are back. That said, bar injuries there are good reasons to start with same tight five. The one area of debate for me is hooker. Sami is throwing 100%, and one could argue that last 20 is when that is most valuable.
The Cane/Frizell/Savea combo worked well in first half, and I think bogus yellow hurt us in losing hard and direct carries.
But punch definitely faded a little in last 30.
To me, argument for Ofa and BBBR on bench. And possibly give Coles another run.
In which case, I'd run Cane and Frizell flat out for 45/50 then bring on BBBR and move Scooter to 6. Ardie to 7 and Akira or even Hoskins to 8.
With Bower and Ofa also joining around 50 that brings a lot of go forward to bear.
Backs is much harder.
Starting seven went well for at least 30.
Against that, to me neither Havili nor Rieko run hard lines to hold the defence, so I quite like thought of Tuapea at 12 and building some skip moves around him, and back three also offering threats.
10 is almost the toss of a coin, and goal kicking might be a key factor. Pumas gained at least five on us in that department, which ended up being decisive.
Bench also tricky. The multiple repetition of a tactic which wasn't working doesn't lend much support to Christie (and Mo'unga), but if bench 10 is BB or Perofeta (good closer) Blues combo probably tips the balance. Last place is either a 12, which covers all possibilities from 11-15, or we need someone to play out of position.
My team:
EDG/ST/TL/SB/SW/SC/SF/AS/Nugget/RM/QT/RI/CC/WJ/JB
Bench:
GB/DC/OT/BBBR/AI/FC/BB/DH
What is apparent is that we really do need to win a couple in a row so that we can give some of the squad some test match game time.
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Let's start by remembering we should have won on Saturday, and that our starting tight five did a number on Pumas.
Agreed. One only has to re-watch the first half to see we were dominating them and should've won easily. The broader issue is lack of comprehension regarding the impact of a ref and on this I felt like I was transported back a decade and a half.
It should've been identified what the impact was and how t negate it. Instead we made the same errors and become the architects of our own demise. Unfortunately it seems that the talk is about not giving away penalties rather than a recognition that in the face of such a refereeing interpretation, the secret isn't to have the ball: Play smarter.
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Let's start by remembering we should have won on Saturday, and that our starting tight five did a number on Pumas.
Ofa, Nepo and BBBR are back. That said, bar injuries there are good reasons to start with same tight five. The one area of debate for me is hooker. Sami is throwing 100%, and one could argue that last 20 is when that is most valuable.
The Cane/Frizell/Savea combo worked well in first half, and I think bogus yellow hurt us in losing hard and direct carries.
But punch definitely faded a little in last 30.
To me, argument for Ofa and BBBR on bench. And possibly give Coles another run.
In which case, I'd run Cane and Frizell flat out for 45/50 then bring on BBBR and move Scooter to 6. Ardie to 7 and Akira or even Hoskins to 8.
With Bower and Ofa also joining around 50 that brings a lot of go forward to bear.
Backs is much harder.
Starting seven went well for at least 30.
Against that, to me neither Havili nor Rieko run hard lines to hold the defence, so I quite like thought of Tuapea at 12 and building some skip moves around him, and back three also offering threats.
10 is almost the toss of a coin, and goal kicking might be a key factor. Pumas gained at least five on us in that department, which ended up being decisive.
Bench also tricky. The multiple repetition of a tactic which wasn't working doesn't lend much support to Christie (and Mo'unga), but if bench 10 is BB or Perofeta (good closer) Blues combo probably tips the balance. Last place is either a 12, which covers all possibilities from 11-15, or we need someone to play out of position.
My team:
EDG/ST/TL/SB/SW/SC/SF/AS/Nugget/RM/QT/RI/CC/WJ/JB
Bench:
GB/DC/OT/BBBR/AI/FC/BB/DH
What is apparent is that we really do need to win a couple in a row so that we can give some of the squad some test match game time.
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Let's start by remembering we should have won on Saturday
But we didn't again, are we down to now thinking we should have won tests that we lose.
Should have could have we didn't win AGAIN.Lost 6 out of 8 I for one can't just sit around thinking we should have won.
That sounds like Wales not the AB's
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I can't wait for this selection,Then I can decide to laugh or fucking cry.
Will we see panic in selections or revert back to some players tried before who have not done their jobs.
Lost sheep syndrome maybe.
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I can't wait for this selection,Then I can decide to laugh or fucking cry.
Will we see panic in selections or revert back to some players tried before who have not done their jobs.
Lost sheep syndrome maybe.
Rock and hard place. If you send a message to non performers and give others a chance it is seen as panic. If you keep them every grizzles that you aren't doing anything to change.
I think we will stick with the front rows despite Taylor being shite. We had huge scrum dominance with both FRs. We may see a swap around though if persisting in the 40 odd minute changeover.
We might see SB on the bench with BBBR starting or no change but more use of Vaa'i.10 is the big question. Do you give Mounga a rev up and a chance to fix things?
This is where, from the safety of my keyboard, I would roll the dice. Mounga did little in the first half that any competent 10 would do. I would like to see Perofeta get a chance there, stand a little deeper until we were dominant and either play for territory and pressure or put the ball into space with a full court press. It won't happen though.Havili's trajectory is matching last years. He is becoming less and less effective and more and more readable. Let's change it up and throw QT on this week. I would also start Reece and hold Jordan on the bench. If Jordie has to cover in the midfield Jordan covers the back. If Jordan is a straight sub he may come on and have impact. At the moment he is a waste of space.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I can't wait for this selection,Then I can decide to laugh or fucking cry.
Will we see panic in selections or revert back to some players tried before who have not done their jobs.
Lost sheep syndrome maybe.
Rock and hard place. If you send a message to non performers and give others a chance it is seen as panic. If you keep them every grizzles that you aren't doing anything to change.
I think we will stick with the front rows despite Taylor being shite. We had huge scrum dominance with both FRs. We may see a swap around though if persisting in the 40 odd minute changeover.
We might see SB on the bench with BBBR starting or no change but more use of Vaa'i.10 is the big question. Do you give Mounga a rev up and a chance to fix things?
This is where, from the safety of my keyboard, I would roll the dice. Mounga did little in the first half that any competent 10 would do. I would like to see Perofeta get a chance there, stand a little deeper until we were dominant and either play for territory and pressure or put the ball into space with a full court press. It won't happen though.Havili's trajectory is matching last years. He is becoming less and less effective and more and more readable. Let's change it up and throw QT on this week. I would also start Reece and hold Jordan on the bench. If Jordie has to cover in the midfield Jordan covers the back. If Jordan is a straight sub he may come on and have impact. At the moment he is a waste of space.
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I can't wait for this selection,Then I can decide to laugh or fucking cry.
Will we see panic in selections or revert back to some players tried before who have not done their jobs.
Lost sheep syndrome maybe.
Rock and hard place. If you send a message to non performers and give others a chance it is seen as panic. If you keep them every grizzles that you aren't doing anything to change.
I think we will stick with the front rows despite Taylor being shite. We had huge scrum dominance with both FRs. We may see a swap around though if persisting in the 40 odd minute changeover.
We might see SB on the bench with BBBR starting or no change but more use of Vaa'i.10 is the big question. Do you give Mounga a rev up and a chance to fix things?
This is where, from the safety of my keyboard, I would roll the dice. Mounga did little in the first half that any competent 10 would do. I would like to see Perofeta get a chance there, stand a little deeper until we were dominant and either play for territory and pressure or put the ball into space with a full court press. It won't happen though.Havili's trajectory is matching last years. He is becoming less and less effective and more and more readable. Let's change it up and throw QT on this week. I would also start Reece and hold Jordan on the bench. If Jordie has to cover in the midfield Jordan covers the back. If Jordan is a straight sub he may come on and have impact. At the moment he is a waste of space.
I am not sure changing a lot of players will help much,Problems run deeper than the players IMO.
I still believe something is not right in that camp.
Jordan for one doesn't look like he wants to be there thats a big shift from him.
Savea to 7 and Jordan to FB Sotutu to No.8 is what I would like to see not going to happen though.
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The only advantage Havili has over the other 2nd 5 options is his kicking game, and his combination with Mo'unga if he starts at 1st 5. Having someone who is going to run more direct and challenge the defensive line, and therefore provide some space to the outside backs would be so much better.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I can't wait for this selection,Then I can decide to laugh or fucking cry.
Will we see panic in selections or revert back to some players tried before who have not done their jobs.
Lost sheep syndrome maybe.
Rock and hard place. If you send a message to non performers and give others a chance it is seen as panic. If you keep them every grizzles that you aren't doing anything to change.
I think we will stick with the front rows despite Taylor being shite. We had huge scrum dominance with both FRs. We may see a swap around though if persisting in the 40 odd minute changeover.
We might see SB on the bench with BBBR starting or no change but more use of Vaa'i.10 is the big question. Do you give Mounga a rev up and a chance to fix things?
This is where, from the safety of my keyboard, I would roll the dice. Mounga did little in the first half that any competent 10 would do. I would like to see Perofeta get a chance there, stand a little deeper until we were dominant and either play for territory and pressure or put the ball into space with a full court press. It won't happen though.Havili's trajectory is matching last years. He is becoming less and less effective and more and more readable. Let's change it up and throw QT on this week. I would also start Reece and hold Jordan on the bench. If Jordie has to cover in the midfield Jordan covers the back. If Jordan is a straight sub he may come on and have impact. At the moment he is a waste of space.
I am not sure changing a lot of players will help much,Problems run deeper than the players IMO.
I still believe something is not right in that camp.
Jordan for one doesn't look like he wants to be there thats a big shift from him.
Savea to 7 and Jordan to FB Sotutu to No.8 is what I would like to see not going to happen though.
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I can't wait for this selection,Then I can decide to laugh or fucking cry.
Will we see panic in selections or revert back to some players tried before who have not done their jobs.
Lost sheep syndrome maybe.
Rock and hard place. If you send a message to non performers and give others a chance it is seen as panic. If you keep them every grizzles that you aren't doing anything to change.
I think we will stick with the front rows despite Taylor being shite. We had huge scrum dominance with both FRs. We may see a swap around though if persisting in the 40 odd minute changeover.
We might see SB on the bench with BBBR starting or no change but more use of Vaa'i.10 is the big question. Do you give Mounga a rev up and a chance to fix things?
This is where, from the safety of my keyboard, I would roll the dice. Mounga did little in the first half that any competent 10 would do. I would like to see Perofeta get a chance there, stand a little deeper until we were dominant and either play for territory and pressure or put the ball into space with a full court press. It won't happen though.Havili's trajectory is matching last years. He is becoming less and less effective and more and more readable. Let's change it up and throw QT on this week. I would also start Reece and hold Jordan on the bench. If Jordie has to cover in the midfield Jordan covers the back. If Jordan is a straight sub he may come on and have impact. At the moment he is a waste of space.
I am not sure changing a lot of players will help much,Problems run deeper than the players IMO.
I still believe something is not right in that camp.
Jordan for one doesn't look like he wants to be there thats a big shift from him.
Savea to 7 and Jordan to FB Sotutu to No.8 is what I would like to see not going to happen though.
If the coaches want to back up the talk that the players aren't using their heads then IMO they need to make changes. If different players do the same thing then the finger points back at them..
There is plenty of evidence in the last game that individual's moments of switching off or making poor decisions are killing the team.
Is that because of, or in spite of, the coaching? I really don't know.
We can't change the coach but changing the players might provide some insight.
It worked with the front row. Who wants the old one back? -
I wouldn’t mind seeing the below
4-Retallick/Whitelock
5-Barrett
6-Frizzel
7-Papalii
8-Savea19-Whitelock/Retallick
20-Sotutu -
The only advantage Havili has over the other 2nd 5 options is his kicking game, and his combination with Mo'unga if he starts at 1st 5. Having someone who is going to run more direct and challenge the defensive line, and therefore provide some space to the outside backs would be so much better.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The only advantage Havili has over the other 2nd 5 options is his kicking game, and his combination with Mo'unga if he starts at 1st 5. Having someone who is going to run more direct and challenge the defensive line, and therefore provide some space to the outside backs would be so much better.
That visual you are imagining doesn't happen often in tests. More often than not it is forwards that are there to do that job. The difference between test rugby and NPC is massive as the backlines we all picture are evident at lower levels but at the top, instead of 5 or 6 players behind the breakdown, working together it is more like 10 or 11.
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The only advantage Havili has over the other 2nd 5 options is his kicking game, and his combination with Mo'unga if he starts at 1st 5. Having someone who is going to run more direct and challenge the defensive line, and therefore provide some space to the outside backs would be so much better.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The only advantage Havili has over the other 2nd 5 options is his kicking game, and his combination with Mo'unga if he starts at 1st 5. Having someone who is going to run more direct and challenge the defensive line, and therefore provide some space to the outside backs would be so much better.
that makes sense on paper...but they dont do it and when we do kick our chase game is shit
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Argentina: Juan Cruz Mallia, Emiliano Boffelli, Matias Moroni, Matias Orlando, Santiago Cordero, Santiago Carreras, Tomas Cubelli, Pablo Matera, Marcos Kremer, Santiago Grondona, Tomas Lavanini, Guido Petti, Joel Sclavi, Julian Montoya (c), Thomas Gallo.
Reserves: Santiago Socino, Mayco Vivas, Eduardo Bello, Matias Alemanno, Juan Martin Gonzalez Samso, Gonzalo Bertranou, Benjamin Urdapilleta, Lucio Cinti.
The usually exuberant Cheika was somewhat lost for words when informed of the tattoo on Thursday morning after making four changes – at blindside, halfback, lock and left wing – to his team for the return test against the All Blacks in Hamilton on Saturday.
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I want to see Jordan at 15 , a change at 7, a change at 8 and a change at 12 as a bare minimum.
Fakatava in the 23 too.
And Cody Taylor shot out of a circus canon.
@Steve said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I want to see Jordan at 15 , a change at 7, a change at 8 and a change at 12 as a bare minimum.
Fakatava in the 23 too.
And Cody Taylor shot out of a circus canon.
cane fakes an injury to save face
7 savea
8 sotutu12 jordie
15 jordan.....just try it out, see if it balances things a bit more
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The only advantage Havili has over the other 2nd 5 options is his kicking game, and his combination with Mo'unga if he starts at 1st 5. Having someone who is going to run more direct and challenge the defensive line, and therefore provide some space to the outside backs would be so much better.
That visual you are imagining doesn't happen often in tests. More often than not it is forwards that are there to do that job. The difference between test rugby and NPC is massive as the backlines we all picture are evident at lower levels but at the top, instead of 5 or 6 players behind the breakdown, working together it is more like 10 or 11.
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The only advantage Havili has over the other 2nd 5 options is his kicking game, and his combination with Mo'unga if he starts at 1st 5. Having someone who is going to run more direct and challenge the defensive line, and therefore provide some space to the outside backs would be so much better.
That visual you are imagining doesn't happen often in tests. More often than not it is forwards that are there to do that job.
Maybe, maybe not. But running laterally doesn't help your team if you are allowing the opposition to drift and not commit to tackling anyone. Kerevi and de Allende are examples of what a 2nd 5 is needs to do when required. I am not expecting a change, however.
