All Blacks XV 2022
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Yes, I think NZRU is right.
Partly driven to vent by annoyance at the stupid status of the team.
(And the stupid status of a long non-existent team, that had stolen the identity/name of the historic U23 team, as still being the second XV)
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 I dont think it matters what they call it, they just need to designate it as our 2nd team for that purpose...I think many years back Fiji had looked at doing that for thier U21 side, but dont think they did.
They could designate the NZ U18 team as our 2nd team if they wanted to.
They cant anymore. Have youth teams as 2nd XVs. That has changed, after the 1st Spain eligibility debacle.
It's as clear as mud.
But, maybe, one day, a team which Levi Aumua is playing for(if in next 3 years, and it is not NZ) may be the subject of an appeal by the opposition. Better take a 36th man in their squad, a lawyer. Maybe they'll win, maybe they'll lose, maybe it will never happen.
But. End of day. Maybe NZRU should be better at not creating unnecessary problems.
This sounds like a job for an NZ Barbarians team to me.
@Rapido it is only clear as mud if you have looked at it, I havent for many years (and even then only with a passing interest) was only going by my recollection that Fiji were going to or tried to do it many years ago.
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@Dan54 I dont think it matters what they call it, they just need to designate it as our 2nd team for that purpose...I think many years back Fiji had looked at doing that for thier U21 side, but dont think they did.
They could designate the NZ U18 team as our 2nd team if they wanted to.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 I dont think it matters what they call it, they just need to designate it as our 2nd team for that purpose...I think many years back Fiji had looked at doing that for thier U21 side, but dont think they did.
They could designate the NZ U18 team as our 2nd team if they wanted to.
Yep mate, understand that, but suspect they may not of called this our second team to avoid capturing players, to remove the need for players (say Levi Aumua) to decide they will or won't risk things until they can see how it goes. I would of been happier to see PGS tried this way. I think with the number we see getting tests etc now do we need to 'capture' more players?
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Is our second team not Ireland?
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks XV:
Is our second team not Ireland?
Would be bloody funny if NZR nominated that.
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So, if those saying that because Levi is playing for MP he is therefore not available for NZ are right, then the decision to select Levi in this team is next level stupid. Or am I missing something?
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So, if those saying that because Levi is playing for MP he is therefore not available for NZ are right, then the decision to select Levi in this team is next level stupid. Or am I missing something?
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
So, if those saying that because Levi is playing for MP he is therefore not available for NZ are right, then the decision to select Levi in this team is next level stupid. Or am I missing something?
The way I see it
He’s not ineligible to play for the ABs (or OZ or the others he is qualified to play for due to heritage) because he plays for MP. MP is in no way a capture side. It’s just a franchise. Was there some type of preference arrangement when MP started regarding PI nations?
Additionally, he will not be ineligible to play for the other non-NZ nations he is eligible for because he has been selected for AB XV because AB XV is not a capture side as far has been communicated to date.
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So, if those saying that because Levi is playing for MP he is therefore not available for NZ are right, then the decision to select Levi in this team is next level stupid. Or am I missing something?
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
So, if those saying that because Levi is playing for MP he is therefore not available for NZ are right, then the decision to select Levi in this team is next level stupid. Or am I missing something?
It is dangling an option in front of him without commitment from either party. For him it is a good situation in that he can still decide whether to represent the country of his birth (NZ) or one that he is otherwise eligible for (Fiji/Samoa).
What is next level stupid about that?
It was announced early on that MP could have a small number of NZ eligible players. Levi fits into that group even though he is also eligible for other countries. -
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
So, if those saying that because Levi is playing for MP he is therefore not available for NZ are right, then the decision to select Levi in this team is next level stupid. Or am I missing something?
It is dangling an option in front of him without commitment from either party. For him it is a good situation in that he can still decide whether to represent the country of his birth (NZ) or one that he is otherwise eligible for (Fiji/Samoa).
What is next level stupid about that?
It was announced early on that MP could have a small number of NZ eligible players. Levi fits into that group even though he is also eligible for other countries. -
@Crucial I understand he may be eligible for OZ as well.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks XV:
@Crucial I understand he may be eligible for OZ as well.
I think he would have to reside in OZ for 5 years ACT? I know he was raised there, but birthplace, lineage are I think the main ones, and residency I believe if you don't have the others expires after leaving a country for a few years.
I would add I think I read that somewhere, and could well be wrong. -
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
So, if those saying that because Levi is playing for MP he is therefore not available for NZ are right, then the decision to select Levi in this team is next level stupid. Or am I missing something?
It is dangling an option in front of him without commitment from either party. For him it is a good situation in that he can still decide whether to represent the country of his birth (NZ) or one that he is otherwise eligible for (Fiji/Samoa).
What is next level stupid about that?
It was announced early on that MP could have a small number of NZ eligible players. Levi fits into that group even though he is also eligible for other countries.@Crucial said in All Blacks XV:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
So, if those saying that because Levi is playing for MP he is therefore not available for NZ are right, then the decision to select Levi in this team is next level stupid. Or am I missing something?
It is dangling an option in front of him without commitment from either party. For him it is a good situation in that he can still decide whether to represent the country of his birth (NZ) or one that he is otherwise eligible for (Fiji/Samoa).
What is next level stupid about that?
It was announced early on that MP could have a small number of NZ eligible players. Levi fits into that group even though he is also eligible for other countries.I thought the team was to give players a run in the lead up to the world cup, players that may be close to selection or in the minds of the selectors if injuries strike. If I am wrong about that then fair enough. But if I am not wrong why would you select a player who wasn't eligible or unable or unwilling to play for the ABs because of some technicality with MP. Wouldn't we be better off looking at someone else?
Edit: my argument is based solely on the claims that he cannot play for the ABs while he is with MP. I have no idea if those claims are right.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks XV:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
So, if those saying that because Levi is playing for MP he is therefore not available for NZ are right, then the decision to select Levi in this team is next level stupid. Or am I missing something?
It is dangling an option in front of him without commitment from either party. For him it is a good situation in that he can still decide whether to represent the country of his birth (NZ) or one that he is otherwise eligible for (Fiji/Samoa).
What is next level stupid about that?
It was announced early on that MP could have a small number of NZ eligible players. Levi fits into that group even though he is also eligible for other countries.I thought the team was to give players a run in the lead up to the world cup, players that may be close to selection or in the minds of the selectors if injuries strike. If I am wrong about that then fair enough. But if I am not wrong why would you select a player who wasn't eligible or unable or unwilling to play for the ABs because of some technicality with MP. Wouldn't we be better off looking at someone else?
Edit: my argument is based solely on the claims that he cannot play for the ABs while he is with MP. I have no idea if those claims are right.
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@Crazy-Horse no technicality with MP mate, you anyone can play for them, I mean Joe Royal played hooker for them, but couldn't play for Island team if he wanted, not eligible, not even sure if Lincoln McClutchie has Island heritage.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks XV:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
So, if those saying that because Levi is playing for MP he is therefore not available for NZ are right, then the decision to select Levi in this team is next level stupid. Or am I missing something?
It is dangling an option in front of him without commitment from either party. For him it is a good situation in that he can still decide whether to represent the country of his birth (NZ) or one that he is otherwise eligible for (Fiji/Samoa).
What is next level stupid about that?
It was announced early on that MP could have a small number of NZ eligible players. Levi fits into that group even though he is also eligible for other countries.I thought the team was to give players a run in the lead up to the world cup, players that may be close to selection or in the minds of the selectors if injuries strike. If I am wrong about that then fair enough. But if I am not wrong why would you select a player who wasn't eligible or unable or unwilling to play for the ABs because of some technicality with MP. Wouldn't we be better off looking at someone else?
Edit: my argument is based solely on the claims that he cannot play for the ABs while he is with MP. I have no idea if those claims are right.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
Edit: my argument is based solely on the claims that he cannot play for the ABs while he is with MP. I have no idea if those claims are right.
Playing for MP does not exclude you from playing for NZ (technically). In reverse they are meant to have 80% pasifika eligible players and can top up with NZ contracted. They are even allowed 3 that are NZ only eligible. Aumua falls into a category of being eligible but not locked to 3 countries. He is either expected by MP to front up if called on by a Pasifika country OR is one of the NZ players but by consequence is also eligible for elsewhere.
The restrictions are only about the makeup of MP so that they aren't a default 6th NZ side ie a Pasifika eligible player takes selection precedence over one that isn't.Edit: If selected for the ABs he needs to make a decision AND MP need to decide if they have him in the 3 NZ only eligible player allowance.
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@stargazer said there was an agreement about MP players
This is from earlier in the thread. If someone has time, maybe search for the original reporting about the agreement?
@Stargazer said in All Blacks XV:
Nope, it has been reported that there is an agreement not to pick ABs/Wallabies eligible players from MP. Obviously, it only applies to players who are actually eligible to play for the Pacific Islands, not players who are still in their stand-down period of 3 years if they are already NZ/OZ capped and want to change country, or players who can not qualify for the Islands, because they have no (grand)parents born in the Islands and can't meet the residency requirement either (like McClutchie).
So, in the case of Levi Aumua, it would be against the agreement to name him in the All Blacks XV, because he's under contract with MP for 2023.
By the way, it has also been reported that MP can sign up to 20% of players that are not eligible for the Islands, but despite that, there was some opposition when they signed McClutchie, because he's not Island eligible.
I'd love to know what is actually in players' contracts. Do they have to sign a clause in which they declare for their country of birth/heritage - if that's one of the PIs - for the duration of their contract? Or do they have to agree to a clause not to accept an invitation from the ABs for the duration of their contract (= not the same thing)? Or is this just an agreement between NZR, RA and the PI Unions?
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@stargazer said there was an agreement about MP players
This is from earlier in the thread. If someone has time, maybe search for the original reporting about the agreement?
@Stargazer said in All Blacks XV:
Nope, it has been reported that there is an agreement not to pick ABs/Wallabies eligible players from MP. Obviously, it only applies to players who are actually eligible to play for the Pacific Islands, not players who are still in their stand-down period of 3 years if they are already NZ/OZ capped and want to change country, or players who can not qualify for the Islands, because they have no (grand)parents born in the Islands and can't meet the residency requirement either (like McClutchie).
So, in the case of Levi Aumua, it would be against the agreement to name him in the All Blacks XV, because he's under contract with MP for 2023.
By the way, it has also been reported that MP can sign up to 20% of players that are not eligible for the Islands, but despite that, there was some opposition when they signed McClutchie, because he's not Island eligible.
I'd love to know what is actually in players' contracts. Do they have to sign a clause in which they declare for their country of birth/heritage - if that's one of the PIs - for the duration of their contract? Or do they have to agree to a clause not to accept an invitation from the ABs for the duration of their contract (= not the same thing)? Or is this just an agreement between NZR, RA and the PI Unions?
@Duluth said in All Blacks XV:
@stargazer said there was an agreement about MP players
This is from earlier in the thread. If someone has time, maybe search for the original reporting about the agreement?
@Stargazer said in All Blacks XV:
Nope, it has been reported that there is an agreement not to pick ABs/Wallabies eligible players from MP. Obviously, it only applies to players who are actually eligible to play for the Pacific Islands, not players who are still in their stand-down period of 3 years if they are already NZ/OZ capped and want to change country, or players who can not qualify for the Islands, because they have no (grand)parents born in the Islands and can't meet the residency requirement either (like McClutchie).
So, in the case of Levi Aumua, it would be against the agreement to name him in the All Blacks XV, because he's under contract with MP for 2023.
By the way, it has also been reported that MP can sign up to 20% of players that are not eligible for the Islands, but despite that, there was some opposition when they signed McClutchie, because he's not Island eligible.
I'd love to know what is actually in players' contracts. Do they have to sign a clause in which they declare for their country of birth/heritage - if that's one of the PIs - for the duration of their contract? Or do they have to agree to a clause not to accept an invitation from the ABs for the duration of their contract (= not the same thing)? Or is this just an agreement between NZR, RA and the PI Unions?
I can't find any reference of an agreement for NZ not to select dual eligible players that are in MP. Even if there was this AB XV is not a side that locks eligibility so his options are still open.
MP themselves say that they expect that players will remain eligible for pasifika nations while signed to MP but, as I posted earlier, they are also allowed 3 non eligible (eg Josh Ioane) players and up to 20% that remain dual eligible. Amua has no restrictions on him if he is part of that 20% -
@Dan54 has that (edit: that the ABs can select him from MP) been confirmed? I thought it was speculation from both sides of the arguement.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 has that (edit: that the ABs can select him from MP) been confirmed? I thought it was speculation from both sides of the arguement.
Well when MP was formed it was publicly confirmed by Bee Gee that after discussions with NZR even ABs could play for MP. And everything I have ever read on eligibilty rules, what is you can only be captured for a country, by playing for that country. I not sure who got the idea that playing for MP captured you as Joe Royal who I know is not eligible to play for any island team played for them.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 has that (edit: that the ABs can select him from MP) been confirmed? I thought it was speculation from both sides of the arguement.
Well when MP was formed it was publicly confirmed by Bee Gee that after discussions with NZR even ABs could play for MP. And everything I have ever read on eligibilty rules, what is you can only be captured for a country, by playing for that country. I not sure who got the idea that playing for MP captured you as Joe Royal who I know is not eligible to play for any island team played for them.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks XV:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 has that (edit: that the ABs can select him from MP) been confirmed? I thought it was speculation from both sides of the arguement.
Well when MP was formed it was publicly confirmed by Bee Gee that after discussions with NZR even ABs could play for MP. And everything I have ever read on eligibilty rules, what is you can only be captured for a country, by playing for that country. I not sure who got the idea that playing for MP captured you as Joe Royal who I know is not eligible to play for any island team played for them.
As far as I can tell nobody is saying MP 'captures' a player. The way I have read things on here is people are suggesting there may be an agreement (a gentlemen's agreement?) that while players are playing for MP they won't be selected for the ABs.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks XV:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 has that (edit: that the ABs can select him from MP) been confirmed? I thought it was speculation from both sides of the arguement.
Well when MP was formed it was publicly confirmed by Bee Gee that after discussions with NZR even ABs could play for MP. And everything I have ever read on eligibilty rules, what is you can only be captured for a country, by playing for that country. I not sure who got the idea that playing for MP captured you as Joe Royal who I know is not eligible to play for any island team played for them.
As far as I can tell nobody is saying MP 'captures' a player. The way I have read things on here is people are suggesting there may be an agreement (a gentlemen's agreement?) that while players are playing for MP they won't be selected for the ABs.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks XV:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks XV:
@Dan54 has that (edit: that the ABs can select him from MP) been confirmed? I thought it was speculation from both sides of the arguement.
Well when MP was formed it was publicly confirmed by Bee Gee that after discussions with NZR even ABs could play for MP. And everything I have ever read on eligibilty rules, what is you can only be captured for a country, by playing for that country. I not sure who got the idea that playing for MP captured you as Joe Royal who I know is not eligible to play for any island team played for them.
As far as I can tell nobody is saying MP 'captures' a player. The way I have read things on here is people are suggesting there may be an agreement (a gentlemen's agreement?) that while players are playing for MP they won't be selected for the ABs.
Haven't heard that mate, just heard Bee Gee say players could go anywhere, but they preferred to have only 3 in squad who weren't making themselves available for Islands. But prepared to say I never looked into it deeply,
