Orlando shooting + terrorism thread

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="593012" data-time="1467258543">
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Muslims in Western countries have been forced to reform their faith as if they didn't they'd be in jail. In other countries... not so much. If you are openly gay in Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan, you are a dead man walking, as the majority of the population will believe you should be punished by death. So in my mind that makes the majority of people in those countries psychos. Is that bigotry? I don't really care, I don't have a lot of time for words that offer religion protection from criticism. I know that's not the original intent of that word, but that is how it is used by many people now.
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That is to make the assumption that all Muslims WANT to live under strict Sharia Law, or something similarly oppressive. If that was the case then every single Muslim would move to a country that practices such a legal and religious alignment.
 
Again, this fails to differentiate between what is written and what is practised/preached. You can't say "Well Islam is fucked because Saudi Arabia" because that is to denigrate all Muslims who don't live there, and don't WANT to live there.
 
There are many people of all religions who do not live the laws of their religion to the letter. If anyone wants to practice a version of their religion that doesn't break the secular law, then that is "freedom of religion".
 
Islam has some of the worst scum doing things for Islam. But that Reformation that Baron is clamouring for actually can't happen overnight, and particularly in a non-hierarchical structure with the schisms that it has.
 
This is going around in circles. I'm just glad that all the Muslims at work today decided it wasn't my day to die or be enslaved as an infidel.... y'know, because they're all just WAITING for their chance to fuck my shit up...
 
<img src="http://replygif.net/i/1095.gif" alt="1095.gif">

reprobate

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593020" data-time="1467260515">
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Because I am not saying anything bigoted no matter how much you try to label. You claim things I never said, refuse to back up your assertions. It is absolutely classic regressive left bullshit. Not having much sympathy for people who follow a ideology preaches hate.. when they get criticized for it, is not bigotry. Islam is not above criticism, people who support the ideology are not above criticism. 
You are trying the classic tactic of making about the poster and not the topic. Through in some straw men and you have a full house of regressive left bingo.
 
You can call it semantics if you like, I dont. What is far more illustrative id you just making stuff up.
My query still stands reprobate, put up. You wont, because you cannot. That should tell you something, but your cloak of sanctimony is so strong you think it is fine to just make up stuff and attribute it to other posters?
 
And you really dont know what bigotry is if you think a lack of sympathy is indicative of it. A lack tolerance is a signal of it. I am tolerant of Muslims, I am not tolerant of the ideology . Of course you have already proven you havent actually read my posts on this topic. You rather just yell BIGOT and pay no attnetion to what people actually say. 
 
"it is not 'their ideology'. if it were, then they would all be out there killing people. "
 
More complete and utter apologist bullshit. It is their ideology, or are you now saying that their no instructions to kill Homosexuals under that ideology? Just because some dont.. means nothing when it comes to criticisng the ideology. 
If Islam is not the ideology of Muslims...whose ideology is it? 
 
It is do funny that an apologist for the most bigoted religion in existence .. accuses others of bigotry when they criticise.
 
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okay then. you suggested in an older thread that muslims coming to new zealand should have to eat pork and draw a picture of mohammed to be allowed in. if that is not being intolerant of other people's beliefs i don't know what is. you literally want to force people to act against their own beliefs - specific beliefs that are not hurting anyone - how on earth does that fit in with you saying above "I am tolerant of Muslims"?
 
an ideology is simply a set of ideas and beliefs. i think it is pretty obvious that peaceful muslims have quite a different set of ideas to ISIS members. they may both call themselves muslim, but their ideologies are very different. you seem to want to put them all in one basket, which is wrong, and unfair.
 
labels? apologist? regressive left?

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="593034" data-time="1467265230">
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okay then. you suggested in an older thread that muslims coming to new zealand should have to eat pork and draw a picture of mohammed to be allowed in. if that is not being intolerant of other people's beliefs i don't know what is. you literally want to force people to act against their own beliefs - specific beliefs that are not hurting anyone - how on earth does that fit in with you saying above "I am tolerant of Muslims"?
 
an ideology is simply a set of ideas and beliefs. i think it is pretty obvious that peaceful muslims have quite a different set of ideas to ISIS members. they may both call themselves muslim, but their ideologies are very different. you seem to want to put them all in one basket, which is wrong, and unfair.
 
labels? apologist? regressive left? 
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Yes apologist, regressive left. You wanted to make this about me, you started with the name calling and absurd narrative. You are classic regressive left. You wanted to start dishing out pejorative terms, learn to take some back.
 
I said that in a response to someone asking how a ban on Islamic immigrants from coming to NZ. Is wanting to control immigration of people who support an ideology of Homophobia, racism and sexism .. bigoted? Is giving skilled migrants also bigoted? What about the good character requirement.. also bigoted?
 
I am not putting muslims into baskets, that is your modus operandi, I am criticising an ideology and those that follow it, support it, refuse to criticise it or attack critics of it.
 
I am still waiting for your proof of assertion. It should be soooo easy.... unless you were just attacking a straw man?
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">you cross the line between attacking the doctrine and the people more often than not,
 
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Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="593033" data-time="1467264973">
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That is to make the assumption that all Muslims WANT to live under strict Sharia Law, or something similarly oppressive. If that was the case then every single Muslim would move to a country that practices such a legal and religious alignment.
 
Again, this fails to differentiate between what is written and what is practised/preached. You can't say "Well Islam is fucked because Saudi Arabia" because that is to denigrate all Muslims who don't live there, and don't WANT to live there.
 
There are many people of all religions who do not live the laws of their religion to the letter. If anyone wants to practice a version of their religion that doesn't break the secular law, then that is "freedom of religion".
 
Islam has some of the worst scum doing things for Islam. But that Reformation that Baron is clamouring for actually can't happen overnight, and particularly in a non-hierarchical structure with the schisms that it has.
 
This is going around in circles. I'm just glad that all the Muslims at work today decided it wasn't my day to die or be enslaved as an infidel.... y'know, because they're all just WAITING for their chance to fuck my shit up...
 
 
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That I am clamouring for? Yes.. the question is .. why arent you? You dont think it needs it? Your tolerance for an ideology that preaches murder and homophobia is very high. You also support the KKK?
 
And any reformation needs to start somewhere, and that isnt being help by the western apologists.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593039" data-time="1467266072">
<div>I am not putting muslims into baskets, that is your modus operandi, I am criticising an ideology and those that follow it, support it, refuse to criticise it or attack critics of it. 
I am still waiting for your proof of assertion. It should be soooo easy.... unless you were just attacking a straw man?
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Isn't that attacking Muslims as an entire group?

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593040" data-time="1467266183">
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Your tolerance for an ideology that preaches murder and homophobia is very high. You also support the KKK?
 
And any reformation needs to start somewhere, and that isnt being help by the western apologists.
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If you're so desperate for Islam to reform, then why don't you go to one of their prayer meetings and tell them to get their shit together? Write your local imam a letter explaining you've got a way for them to get out of their bullshit medieval ways and start enjoying bacon.
 
Have you even talked to your local MP about the threat of Islam? 
 
 
Most of us don't actually have time to give a fuck what Islam or its adherents do. As long as they're not fucking with the secular laws of my country, I'm cool. Same as any religion or group of whacko dickheads. 
 
When they do start to break the law, then throw the fucking book at them, by all means, and tell them that's not on. Deport them if its called for.
 
Likewise, when shouty fucking dickheads start spouting hate crime and destroying mosques, churches, war memorials, or public property, I'm going to tell them they're fluffybunnys as well and should be prosecuted accordingly. The problem with narrow-minded, white trash fuckheads without a clue, is you generally don't get to deport them.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="593041" data-time="1467266244">
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Isn't that attacking Muslims as an entire group?
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I am not limiting it to them though. Non Muslims like some in this thread are included.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593040" data-time="1467266183">
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That I am clamouring for? Yes.. the question is .. why arent you? You dont think it needs it? Your tolerance for an ideology that preaches murder and homophobia is very high. You also support the KKK?
 
And any reformation needs to start somewhere, and that isnt being help by the western apologists.
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The reformation occurred because of criticism and a schism within christianity. I'd imagine if the leaders of Islam had criticised Christianity they'd have got a "get the fuck out of town" from the Pope and started another round of crusades. The islamic reformation (if it ever happens) will need to be generated from within

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593047" data-time="1467267699">
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I am not limiting it to them though. Non Muslims like some in this thread are included. 
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Is that meant to make it better?

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="593048" data-time="1467267747">
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The reformation occurred because of criticism and a schism within christianity. I'd imagine if the leaders of Islam had criticised Christianity they'd have started another round of crusades. The islamic reformation (if it ever happens) will need to be generated from within
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Difficult given the size of their schism and its timing (early on in formation of the belief system). Also they have less of a hierarchical nature to their structure so that complicates matters.
 
The Christian church was a big unit, then bits broke off.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="593046" data-time="1467267693">
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If you're so desperate for Islam to reform, then why don't you go to one of their prayer meetings and tell them to get their shit together? Write your local imam a letter explaining you've got a way for them to get out of their bullshit medieval ways and start enjoying bacon.
 
Have you even talked to your local MP about the threat of Islam? 
 
 
Most of us don't actually have time to give a fuck what Islam or its adherents do, as long as they're not fucking with the secular laws of my country. Same as any religion or group of whacko dickheads. Organised crime, bikers, drug dealers, whatever.
 
When they do start to break the law, then throw the fucking book at them, by all means, and tell them that's not on. Deport them if its called for.
 
Likewise, when shouty fucking dickheads start spouting hate crime and destroying mosques, I'm going to tell them they're fluffybunnies as well and should be prosecuted accordingly. The problem with narrow-minded, white trash fuckheads without a clue, is you generally don't get to deport them.
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I do my bit to to tangibly support free speech dont worry about that. I have little chance of getting Muslims to change, I see the first step being to educate the apologists and promote free speech without being shouted down by regressive lefties screaming 'BIGOT' the first chance they get. Once it is as normal to criticise and critique Islam as it other religions, then Muslims will start their own reformations in western countries.
 
Interesting that you bought race into the equation with your last sentence. Just an observation.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="593049" data-time="1467267825">
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Is that meant to make it better?
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Why should I care if you think it is better? Better is subjective term.
I was simply explaining your assumptional mistake.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="593050" data-time="1467267868">
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Difficult given the size of their schism and its timing (early on in formation of the belief system). Also they have less of a hierarchical nature to their structure so that complicates matters.
 
The Christian church was a big unit, then bits broke off. 
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The point I was making was that the changes were sparked from within, not from the outside

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593020" data-time="1467260515">
<div> I am tolerant of Muslims, I am not tolerant of the ideology</div>
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<div>So by definition all muslims practice Islam/the ideology, so.....?</div>

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593051" data-time="1467267920">
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Interesting that you bought race into the equation with your last sentence. Just an observation.
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No, it isn't actually, when you consider a lot of the damage to mosques is done by ignorant, white fuckheads who were born here. They don't agree with your push for free speech and reformation BTW - they're just uneducated, usually white, and generally fuckheads and deserve due investigation and punishment as the law proscribes.

NTA

AND they can't be deported in the event they were born here. Fact.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="593055" data-time="1467268149">
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<div>So by definition all muslims practice Islam/the ideology, so.....?</div>
 
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If they don't openly criticise the hateful elements of it.....

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="593056" data-time="1467268175">
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No, it isn't actually, when you consider a lot of the damage to mosques is done by ignorant, white fuckheads who were born here. They don't agree with your push for free speech and reformation BTW - they're just uneducated, usually white, and generally fuckheads and deserve due investigation and punishment as the law proscribes.
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Again.. interesting that you bought race into it.....
 
I am not bothered over it though, just found it interesting as to how colour of skin seems to a semi important element for on that topic.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593058" data-time="1467269056">
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If they don't openly criticise the hateful elements of it.....
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<img src="https://cdn.meme.am/instances/26028065.jpg" alt="26028065.jpg">

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="593059" data-time="1467269209">Again.. interesting that you bought race into it..... 
I am not bothered over it though, just found it interesting as to how colour of skin seems to a semi important element for on that topic.</blockquote>
 
Not bothered by it, but felt the need to point it out, then fell back to passive-aggressive mode once I explained myself. 
Right.

The Silver Fern

Orlando shooting + terrorism thread