Black Caps v England

Crucial

@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v England:

@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:

Anyone want to have a crack at the other three Tests lost after enforcing the follow on?

Is that a question ?

Fairly sure one of them is when Dravid and Laxman scored a truckload between them.

yep
Oz got that one really wrong. Put India back in to score 657/7 then get skittled for 212

One was in 1894 so I doubt even the GOM here will recall that (Aus v Eng @SCG)

The other was obviously also Aus loss. 1981 @ Headingley. The convicts got rolled for 111 chasing 230

I remember that game well and they were chasing 130 i.e. not very much at all and I think they reached 50-1 before

8/43 Bob got that day. Have marked his with an (x)

1-13 Wood 2-56 Chappell (x) 3-58 Hughes (x) 4-58 Yallop (x)
5-65 Border 6-68 Dyson (x) 7-74 Marsh (x) 8-75 Lawson (x)
9-110 Lillee (x) 10-111 Bright (x)

Beefy got MOTM though. A century (149) and a 6fer in Aus first innings

dogmeat

@Crucial I was hitching through Norway. Got picked up by some Aussies around Jutenheim who were typically loud about how magnificent their team was and how shite the Poms were. This woud have been on the Saturday when the Poms were already one down needing about a gazillion to make the Aussies bat again.

Bumped into them again a few days later in Oslo and they were much more subdued.

The only way you could follow the match was to get an English language paper anbd read what had happened - usually two days late.

It was a fantastic series even following it from afar. History repeated in the next test although not quite so spectacularly. It was a very average Aussie batting order.

MN5

@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:

@KiwiPie said in Black Caps v England:

@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v England:

@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:

Anyone want to have a crack at the other three Tests lost after enforcing the follow on?

Is that a question ?

Fairly sure one of them is when Dravid and Laxman scored a truckload between them.

yep
Oz got that one really wrong. Put India back in to score 657/7 then get skittled for 212

One was in 1894 so I doubt even the GOM here will recall that (Aus v Eng @SCG)

The other was obviously also Aus loss. 1981 @ Headingley. The convicts got rolled for 111 chasing 230

I remember that game well and they were chasing 130 i.e. not very much at all and I think they reached 50-1 before

8/43 Bob got that day. Have marked his with an (x)

1-13 Wood 2-56 Chappell (x) 3-58 Hughes (x) 4-58 Yallop (x)
5-65 Border 6-68 Dyson (x) 7-74 Marsh (x) 8-75 Lawson (x)
9-110 Lillee (x) 10-111 Bright (x)

Beefy got MOTM though. A century (149) and a 6fer in Aus first innings

A funny quirk about Bob Willis’s career is despite the 8 fer he never took ten wickets in a match. Ever.

Wouldn’t be many great bowlers ( and he was one ) with that dubious claim.

Joel Garner is another I can think of, he took fuck all 5 fers too !

Catogrande

@dogmeat

I’d watched a bit of the highlights and was working on the day Willis was doing the business. Walking down Taunton Hight Street and seeing a crowd gathered round the TV rental shop. We all stood around for a couple of hours watching it unfold.

Crucial

At one stage England were following on and 4-41. Even a humble Aussie fan (if such a thing exists) would have been past counting their chickens and onto planning the menu.

A pretty average Oz batting lineup and Border contributing only 8 runs in two innings probably a big factor

KiwiPie

@Catogrande said in Black Caps v England:

@dogmeat

I’d watched a bit of the highlights and was working on the day Willis was doing the business. Walking down Taunton Hight Street and seeing a crowd gathered round the TV rental shop. We all stood around for a couple of hours watching it unfold.

Some old buggers on this website! I had glandular fever and was in bed for a week and had an B&W TV moved into my room. Had pretty much given up at 50-1, remember with 8 down and the runs building I was switching between TV and radio to change my luck.

LABCAT

@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:

Stead says no changes for Sti Lanka , same 13, God save us from this man.

What changes could he actually make though?

Young's performance secured Nichools spot for the next series at least. Phillips is not a number 4 so can't replace Young.

The only realistic change would be Sodhi for Bracewell

canefan

@LABCAT said in Black Caps v England:

@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:

Stead says no changes for Sti Lanka , same 13, God save us from this man.

What changes could he actually make though?

Young's performance secured Nichools spot for the next series at least. Phillips is not a number 4 so can't replace Young.

The only realistic change would be Sodhi for Bracewell

Bracewell should be gone, but Stead has a horn for him big time. Replace him with either Satnav, Ish, or Phillips and let him bowl. Just stop the madness

nostrildamus

There doesn't seem to be much love for the coach on this thread.

canefan

@nostrildamus said in Black Caps v England:

There doesn't seem to be much love for the coach on this thread.

Stead would die to have the love the Fern has for Fozzie right now

Chris

@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:

Stead says no changes for Sti Lanka , same 13, God save us from this man.

Why change he has to back the 11 who did the Job in the last test.
The other 2 cover the squad.
You win a test match like that one and make changes not a good coaching move the team will be unified after that win.

Donsteppa

I think a case could be reasonably made for swapping Bracewell for Sodhi, but after a win like that I think the question marks about the balance of the side, or Young & Nicholls all have to be set aside for another game.

And maybe even Bracewell gets the mental boost of the win, and the now relatively safe kick up the backside of that poor running, given they got away with it on the scoresheet. As much as a few of us were (rightly!) furious about that running, I suspect he's still more gutted about it than anyone...

If I was in the hot seat I suspect I'd think long and hard and eventually pick Sodhi at 8, but I don't think that is the style of Stead and Southee.

Joys of one run or one point in sport. Had it been a one wicket loss...! I've occasionally wondered how NZ rugby history would have gone had 2011 finished up 7 - 8 at Eden Park instead.

four more years

It seemed a golden chance to try some younger players such as Ravindra or Phillips batting (and part-time spinners), seam bowling allrounders like Nathan Smith (really talented) and Henry Shipley (far better allround cricketers than Bracewell, and far better bowlers than Kuggeleijn and Tickner) or pick a proper spinner like Sodhi who actually averages more with the bat than Bracewell does anyway.

Everyone in our team is over 30 and we'll probably have mass retirements in about 3 years. Next summer we have South Africa and Australia coming for tests (part of the next WTC). It would be far better for young players to debut against SL now than against the Saffa and Aussie quicks.

mariner4life

the rest of the team barely matters

just like our recent golden period, this was built on a Kane century, great runs from the keeper, and Wags cleaning up the middle order. The other 8 blokes are place holders

four more years

@LABCAT said in Black Caps v England:

@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:

Phillips is not a number 4 so can't replace Young.

Phillips batted 4 for Otago vs Wellington which was on at the same time as the test and scored 61 off 67 in the 1st innings and 47 off 28 in the second. Sounds like our version of Harry Brook to me.

Chris

@four-more-years said in Black Caps v England:

It seemed a golden chance to try some younger players such as Ravindra or Phillips batting (and part-time spinners), seam bowling allrounders like Nathan Smith (really talented) and Henry Shipley (far better allround cricketers than Bracewell, and far better bowlers than Kuggeleijn and Tickner) or pick a proper spinner like Sodhi who actually averages more with the bat than Bracewell does anyway.

Everyone in our team is over 30 and we'll probably have mass retirements in about 3 years. Next summer we have South Africa and Australia coming for tests (part of the next WTC). It would be far better for young players to debut against SL now than against the Saffa and Aussie quicks.

that has to be balanced by a big win over England,I watched a lot of the SS apart from Phillips and maybe Ravindra who to me are borderline Test players.
I don't see the talent to make changes just to give players a test match.
Smith and Shipley for me are a long way away from test standard,

The depth of test players in NZ is poor,For me I am a earn your test spot person, not try someone who is a big gamble unless the player is dominating domestic cricket like Conway did.
Dropping players after that win maybe a good way for the coach to lose the dressing room, the team will be very tight and unified after that win.

Donsteppa

@Chris said in Black Caps v England:

The depth of test players in NZ is poor

It is one of the biggest challenges facing the Caps, challenging for the next WTC could go well, or become another mid 90's disaster as retirements loom. It would be nice to have the equivalent of a Brad Hodge or a Darren Lehmann running around in Plunket Shield, but...

For spin bowling there are at least a few relatively viable alternatives in Bracewell/Sodhi/Patel, and to an extent Ravindra. For the pace bowling, the well looks pretty dry for Test quality options. (And D. Bracewell seems to time his injuries badly...)

Chris B.

@dogmeat said in Black Caps v England:

It was a very average Aussie batting order.

Though definitely better than what they had a couple of years earlier when WSC was on - and better than what came after when we beat them in 1985/86.

I doubt NZ will change the playing XI unless they decide Christchurch doesn't warrant playing a spinner, in which case maybe Tickner comes back for Bracewell.

Assuming Chris is correct about Young and his off stump (I can't watch to form an opinion), then I'd bring Phillips in to bat 6 and maybe push Mitch Jr. to 4.

four more years

@Chris

Put it this way:

Last season 2021/22 Nathan Smith took 31 Plunket Shield wickets at 18.41. His overall stats aren't amazing (bowling av 30.7, batting av 27.7), but that's because he debuted for Otago at 17/18.

Last season Scott Kuggeleijn took 4 at 50.50

Shipley just gives a bit of variety - big guy who swings it and bats a bit (basically a poor man's Jamieson).

Chris

@Donsteppa said in Black Caps v England:

@Chris said in Black Caps v England:

The depth of test players in NZ is poor

It is one of the biggest challenges facing the Caps, challenging for the next WTC could go well, or become another mid 90's disaster as retirements loom. It would be nice to have the equivalent of a Brad Hodge or a Darren Lehmann running around in Plunket Shield, but...

For spin bowling there are at least a few relatively viable alternatives in Bracewell/Sodhi/Patel, and to an extent Ravindra. For the pace bowling, the well looks pretty dry for Test quality options. (And D. Bracewell seems to time his injuries badly...)

The way NZ have/are selecting players maybe the way to go when these players retire.
Select the next tier of experienced players who have time at the crease behind them.
Hope those one in a generation young players turn up to add to the mix.
Hoping to get the blend of experience and up and coming talent right.
Conway was selected later in his career (of course qualification was the issue).But he is a better player when selected at 28 than when he was 23 he admits that himself.
Young has had to wait etc.
You need to have a base of runs and time at the crease and really understand your game and limitations to be successful at test Cricket it really does test out your technique and metal strength test Cricket.

The Silver Fern

Black Caps v England