Moana Pasifika v Chiefs
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@Yeetyaah said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
Any ideas if Moana would face some disciplinary action from putting an extra man out there when they weren't supposed to? Say what you will about the rule but at the end of the day it's still a rule.
I think the refs got it wrong when they denied the replacement. That bloke was clearly in need of a head check and Gardner discouraged the med staff from checking him on field by saying that if he needed more attention he would have to leave. Messy as he had a physical injury as well as a knock.
Gardner just gets games into messy situations in my opinion. -
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy the TMO tried to steer the ref to seeing the very clear and obvious attempt to regather but the ref fell back to the old way of rule no as “not in a position to regather”
He did try to regather but was in no position to catch it as he'd whacked at the ball with an uncontrolled action. I'd have more sympathy if he'd made a genuine attempt with 'soft hands'.
Is it still an attempt to regather if a player batters the ball away and sticks their hands up in a catching motion - but the ball is 10m down the field? Or is the law more aimed at the players that actually regather it but then knock it on.
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@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
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@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
The deliberate infringement is trying to block the pass instead of trying to catch the ball.
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@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
The deliberate infringement is trying to block the pass instead of trying to catch the ball.
Isn’t the infringement in question a deliberate knock on?
Where does it say you can’t block a pass?
To me deliberate means having intent. I say his intent was to intercept the ball.
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@Gunner said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
The deliberate infringement is trying to block the pass instead of trying to catch the ball.
Isn’t the infringement in question a deliberate knock on?
Where does it say you can’t block a pass?
To me deliberate means having intent. I say his intent was to intercept the ball.
My point exactly. There’s nothing illegal in blocking a pass.
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Deliberate Knock-On - the most (?) poorly described infringement, but...
- I believe the intention of the law - was to avoid fluffybunnies running up and blocking passes, a shit tactic which easily kills attacking rugby
- Do we really want people to be able to run up into the attacking line, and just block passes? We might as well do away with wingers.
- This law - in my optimistic mind - was intended to allow genuine intercepts, but discourage pricks just batting the ball out of the air. ie: make it more than just a "knock-on"... as that is simply not a deterrent in that scenario.
- The naming of it - shit
- The implementation of it, to date - shit
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@Gunner said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
The deliberate infringement is trying to block the pass instead of trying to catch the ball.
Isn’t the infringement in question a deliberate knock on?
Where does it say you can’t block a pass?
In the laws. If someone throws a pass, you either let it go or intercept it. Blocking it isn't an intercept, so you're left with?
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@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Gunner said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
The deliberate infringement is trying to block the pass instead of trying to catch the ball.
Isn’t the infringement in question a deliberate knock on?
Where does it say you can’t block a pass?
In the laws. If someone throws a pass, you either let it go or intercept it. Blocking it isn't an intercept, so you're left with?
So if I run into the passing lane and it hits me in the head is that illegal in your laws (I’m guessing that they are yours as they aren’t the real ones)?
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@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Gunner said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
The deliberate infringement is trying to block the pass instead of trying to catch the ball.
Isn’t the infringement in question a deliberate knock on?
Where does it say you can’t block a pass?
In the laws. If someone throws a pass, you either let it go or intercept it. Blocking it isn't an intercept, so you're left with?
So if I run into the passing lane and it hits me in the head is that illegal in your laws (I’m guessing that they are yours as they aren’t the real ones)?
Are you being deliberately obtuse or not know that the head isn't a hand or arm?
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Do we want players being able to just run into the passing lane, and throw hands and arms in the air to stop passing?
Knowing that if a pass is attempted, hits them, and happens to go forward (relative to the defender) - they're only going to get a scrum.... ?
No. That would make a shit game.
So - let's discourage that, by making that action be penalised a hell of a lot more harshly.
Let's give this new infringement a catchy name. "Deliberate Knock-On". Despite that having very little correlation with the actual infringement or intent.
Commentators - It'd sound sexier as a Deliberate Knock-Down
Refs - WTF? Ah well, it'll let us make some more contentious decisions, get our names in the papers.
Players - Huh? Sounds like a lottery - let's just roll the dice, continue doing what we were doing, and see what happens.
Fans - WTF? But - my player tried to intercept that. THEIR player didn't, he couldn't have really caught that. WTF? Waaaaaahhhh...Edit: how to fix it?
I don't know. But for starters - a better name. "Knock-on of the other team's passed ball" - isn't as catchy, but... fuck-tonne more accurate.
Clarify the intent of the law, to refs and players, in order to allow it to be more consistently ruled.- Remove the "genuine attempt to catch" - perhaps?
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- Let the players roll the dice - "can I really intercept this?"
- OR: the other direction. Lean into the "genuine attempt to catch"
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@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Gunner said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
The deliberate infringement is trying to block the pass instead of trying to catch the ball.
Isn’t the infringement in question a deliberate knock on?
Where does it say you can’t block a pass?
In the laws. If someone throws a pass, you either let it go or intercept it. Blocking it isn't an intercept, so you're left with?
So if I run into the passing lane and it hits me in the head is that illegal in your laws (I’m guessing that they are yours as they aren’t the real ones)?
Are you being deliberately obtuse or not know that the head isn't a hand or arm?
Providing an example that a player is allowed to block a pass with their body. Perfectly legal. You have said no blocking allowed.
Deliberately knocking the ball forward implies that you have made a forward motion with your hands.
Are you saying that if I was standing in the path and a pass was made above my head that I’m not allowed to reach up to block? If I mistime a backward swipe at the ball in a lineout and it hits my arm and goes forward that should be penalised? I was never trying to catch the ball but it bounced off my arm.
The Gatland one tonight wasn’t clear cut and doesn’t clearly fit this argument anyway. I just thought that (as posted) the refs had been told to interpret differently and Gardner interpretation was the old one. His explanation certainly was. -
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Gunner said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
The deliberate infringement is trying to block the pass instead of trying to catch the ball.
Isn’t the infringement in question a deliberate knock on?
Where does it say you can’t block a pass?
In the laws. If someone throws a pass, you either let it go or intercept it. Blocking it isn't an intercept, so you're left with?
So if I run into the passing lane and it hits me in the head is that illegal in your laws (I’m guessing that they are yours as they aren’t the real ones)?
Are you being deliberately obtuse or not know that the head isn't a hand or arm?
Providing an example that a player is allowed to block a pass with their body. Perfectly legal. You have said no blocking allowed.
With their hand or arm. In a discussion about deliberate knock on, that would be implied. I didn't think we needed a kindergarten level discussion pointing out what is clearly fucking stated in the laws.
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Shame about the refereeing of that one. Seemed to go on forever. Any excuse to penalise or card or slow things down.
I thought the standard of form for the Chiefs players varied markedly. Vaii Norris Taukeiaho Cane Weber Dmac Nankivell and Stevenson all very good today. But PGS and ENS were quite error prone as were several of the subs and that made a huge difference.
MP was a different team in second half. Failagi looks very good. Inisi too.
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@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Gunner said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
The deliberate infringement is trying to block the pass instead of trying to catch the ball.
Isn’t the infringement in question a deliberate knock on?
Where does it say you can’t block a pass?
In the laws. If someone throws a pass, you either let it go or intercept it. Blocking it isn't an intercept, so you're left with?
So if I run into the passing lane and it hits me in the head is that illegal in your laws (I’m guessing that they are yours as they aren’t the real ones)?
Are you being deliberately obtuse or not know that the head isn't a hand or arm?
Providing an example that a player is allowed to block a pass with their body. Perfectly legal. You have said no blocking allowed.
With their hand or arm. In a discussion about deliberate knock on, that would be implied. I didn't think we needed a kindergarten level discussion pointing out what is clearly fucking stated in the laws.
The years old discussion here is that the laws are not clearly fucking stated at all going by the decisions made
A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm.
How is putting your hands up “intentionally knocking the ball forward “? The ball could bounce off them anywhere. (For argument sake you have your hands facing the pass and not angled forward)
The law is clearly written but does not have a clear interpretation.
That’s why there has been “extras added” to describe a scenario when the law shouldn’t be applied. It doesn’t say it’s the only scenario. -
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Gunner said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Crucial said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@antipodean said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
@Toddy said in Moana Pasifika v Chiefs:
I thought it was a good call against Gatland. He put his arm up in a hail mary action. Didn't look controlled at all.
The fact he got a second go at it is IMO immaterial. The first action wasn't an attempt to intercept. That he was the last defender resulted in a deserved penalty try.
Agree to disagree. I don’t think it was clearly anything but putting his hands up (not reaching out) to block the pass. He is entitled to do that and because the ball bounced forward he tried to regather. There’s no deliberate infringement in that action
The deliberate infringement is trying to block the pass instead of trying to catch the ball.
Isn’t the infringement in question a deliberate knock on?
Where does it say you can’t block a pass?
In the laws. If someone throws a pass, you either let it go or intercept it. Blocking it isn't an intercept, so you're left with?
So if I run into the passing lane and it hits me in the head is that illegal in your laws (I’m guessing that they are yours as they aren’t the real ones)?
Are you being deliberately obtuse or not know that the head isn't a hand or arm?
Providing an example that a player is allowed to block a pass with their body. Perfectly legal. You have said no blocking allowed.
With their hand or arm. In a discussion about deliberate knock on, that would be implied. I didn't think we needed a kindergarten level discussion pointing out what is clearly fucking stated in the laws.
The years old discussion here is that the laws are not clearly fucking stated at all going by the decisions made
A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm.
How is putting your hands up “intentionally knocking the ball forward “? The ball could bounce off them anywhere. (For argument sake you have your hands facing the pass and not angled forward)
If the ball doesn't go forward, then it's immaterial. If it does go forward off the hand or arm, then it is in the judgement of the referee if it was deliberate. Judging intent comes down to looking at the action (hitting the ball with hand or arm preventing the pass), the outcome (knocked forward), and determining whether they believe you had a realistic chance of catching it.
If you have to raise kicking, or the ball hitting your head, or the ball not going forward, then you don't actually have an argument based on the laws.
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