Magpies 2023
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@Nepia Mate. That's not going to work. Philpott tried mainly local talent just after we got promoted, and look what happened. Now I know there's no relegation, but for the Bay to stay profitable, and have attraction for players to come, you need results. If you don't get them, and no disrespect, you could end up being a Southland and struggling every year. Imports are a necessity.
@Billsy111 said in Magpies 2023:
@Nepia Mate. That's not going to work. Philpott tried mainly local talent just after we got promoted, and look what happened. Now I know there's no relegation, but for the Bay to stay profitable, and have attraction for players to come, you need results. If you don't get them, and no disrespect, you could end up being a Southland and struggling every year. Imports are a necessity.
TBF, Ozich used mostly local talent in our most modern successful period. I bet if you line up any of Ozich starting lineups against Philpott's there will be more local raised players.
One year bandages, see Tiatia/Baker, have been proven not to work.
Also, re: Gibson, is injured at the moment, because as far as I can recall he hasn't played for the Canes this year? Actually, is he still with the Canes?
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@Billsy111 said in Magpies 2023:
@Nepia Mate. That's not going to work. Philpott tried mainly local talent just after we got promoted, and look what happened. Now I know there's no relegation, but for the Bay to stay profitable, and have attraction for players to come, you need results. If you don't get them, and no disrespect, you could end up being a Southland and struggling every year. Imports are a necessity.
TBF, Ozich used mostly local talent in our most modern successful period. I bet if you line up any of Ozich starting lineups against Philpott's there will be more local raised players.
One year bandages, see Tiatia/Baker, have been proven not to work.
Also, re: Gibson, is injured at the moment, because as far as I can recall he hasn't played for the Canes this year? Actually, is he still with the Canes?
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@Nepia Gibson was only in the Canes' squad in 2022, then played for Auckland. He's now playing for Suntory Sungoliath in Japan.
@Stargazer said in Magpies 2023:
@Nepia Gibson was only in the Canes' squad in 2022, then played for Auckland. He's now playing for Suntory Sungoliath in Japan.
Oh, yeah, then I definitely don't want him.
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@Stargazer said in Magpies 2023:
@Nepia Gibson was only in the Canes' squad in 2022, then played for Auckland. He's now playing for Suntory Sungoliath in Japan.
Oh, yeah, then I definitely don't want him.
@Nepia It's getting worse. I just checked his player profile for Tokyo Sungoliath and he hasn't played a single game for them yet, since the season started. They've played 13 rounds. So he's either injured again, or not picked (or a combination of both).
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@Billsy111 said in Magpies 2023:
@Nepia Mate. That's not going to work. Philpott tried mainly local talent just after we got promoted, and look what happened. Now I know there's no relegation, but for the Bay to stay profitable, and have attraction for players to come, you need results. If you don't get them, and no disrespect, you could end up being a Southland and struggling every year. Imports are a necessity.
Mark Ozich introduced a lot of young rookies (Devan Flanders et al) and we didn't do great in his first year (3rd in the Championship division & losing semi-finalists), but Ozich was clearly building a new team and that lead to success only 2 years later. That's how we won the Shield and earned promotion in 2020.
It's a bit of a conundrum, because Syms clearly isn't of the same level as Ozich as a coach.
Imports are only a necessity if they're actually capable of helping us win games, so I'm not against imports per se, if they're actually good. Gibson is an okayish player, but always breaks, so how many games will we get out of him? Tiatia was mostly terrible last year. From other provinces, we usually get rejects or players looking for more game time. Sometimes they turn out to be really good (Ili & Funaki, for example), but Syms' picks last year weren't good at all. I agree with @Nepia, with this year probably going to be a struggle anyway, let's focus on giving some of our better, local/academy players game time, let them learn, so they'll be more prepared and ready in 2024.
It's true you need success to get bums on seats, but a crowd also wants to see our local players on the paddock. Only very good imports that can help us win will get their support. If we lose a lot of games with young local players, crowds will be more patient and remain supportive than if we lose with average imports.
@Stargazer Philpot was an average at best let's be honest. Here's the problem. You use local talent this year, and then after the world cup, and these top players are available what do you do? Now don't get me wrong I love the local talent, but I don't want to watch the Bay get walked over in the NPC. To me that's a backward step. If we need to import we do it, and attempt to keep our ranking high in New Zealand Rugby
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@Stargazer Philpot was an average at best let's be honest. Here's the problem. You use local talent this year, and then after the world cup, and these top players are available what do you do? Now don't get me wrong I love the local talent, but I don't want to watch the Bay get walked over in the NPC. To me that's a backward step. If we need to import we do it, and attempt to keep our ranking high in New Zealand Rugby
@Billsy111 said in Magpies 2023:
@Stargazer Philpot was an average at best let's be honest. Here's the problem. You use local talent this year, and then after the world cup, and these top players are available what do you do? Now don't get me wrong I love the local talent, but I don't want to watch the Bay get walked over in the NPC. To me that's a backward step. If we need to import we do it, and attempt to keep our ranking high in New Zealand Rugby
You're starting from a baseline of an import is always better when that is not necessarily the case. A young tyro like Flanders may well prove to be better than a frequently broken guy no longer in top class rugby in NZ who never lived up to his own young tyro hype.
And as with the already provided examples our big name imports are generally shit. It's the less heralded imports that generally do the job (the Ili's, Funaki's etc).
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@Stargazer Philpot was an average at best let's be honest. Here's the problem. You use local talent this year, and then after the world cup, and these top players are available what do you do? Now don't get me wrong I love the local talent, but I don't want to watch the Bay get walked over in the NPC. To me that's a backward step. If we need to import we do it, and attempt to keep our ranking high in New Zealand Rugby
@Billsy111 We'll also get walked over in the NPC if we sign average imports or imports that are always injured. For example, what was the point of signing Sione Tuipulotu, last year? And why Grigg, who left in the middle of the season to go to France?
My guess is that a few players won't return after the RWC. Tuitavuki is an example (hardly got game time for the Magpies). Once Funaki comes back, they can drop Sam Smith and keep local Cooper Flanders. Some players are also aging, think Kaifa & Visinia. Some average players may be kept in the squad this year because of RWC absences but can be dropped once these RWC players return. Think Higgins & Robinson-Bartlett.
Anyway, if they sign imports, they should be signed for one year only.
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@Billsy111 We'll also get walked over in the NPC if we sign average imports or imports that are always injured. For example, what was the point of signing Sione Tuipulotu, last year? And why Grigg, who left in the middle of the season to go to France?
My guess is that a few players won't return after the RWC. Tuitavuki is an example (hardly got game time for the Magpies). Once Funaki comes back, they can drop Sam Smith and keep local Cooper Flanders. Some players are also aging, think Kaifa & Visinia. Some average players may be kept in the squad this year because of RWC absences but can be dropped once these RWC players return. Think Higgins & Robinson-Bartlett.
Anyway, if they sign imports, they should be signed for one year only.
@Stargazer I just think imports are needed. Clearly they need to be quality, and yes Cooper Flanders I totally agree with. But in the elite division you simply cannot threaten without players to boost your squad. It's been tried, and doesn't work.
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My mate just text me a pic of Tiatia in a vertically striped Magpies jumper.
It better be an April Fools joke.
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I've been wondering where we may need fresh blood in the Magpies squad, so I've gone throught the list of 2022:
2022 squad: players confirmed for 2023 are bolded (but there aren't many)
Prop
Joe Apikotoa (TH) - possibly at RWC with Tonga
Mark Braidwood (LH)
Lolani Faleiva (LH)
Joel Hintz (TH)
Jason Long(LH, retired)
Pouri Rakete-Stones (LH & TH)
Namatahi Waa(TH, injured in 2022) - retired (not publicly confirmed?)
Hooker
Jacob Devery (injured in 2022)
Kianu Kereru Symes
Gene Syminton
Tyrone Thompson
Lock
Bryn Evans(retired)
Frank Lochore
Tom Parsons - retired?
Brodie Retallick - likely to be with ABs; then to Kobe. Has he already played his last game in black & white hoops?
Isaia Walker-Leawere
Lock/loosie
Sione Tuipulotu
Tiaki Fabish - still playing in Spain; no idea whether or when he'll be back
Loose forward
Gareth Evans (8, also 7 & 6; injured in 2022) - retired?
Devan Flanders (8/6)
Solomone Funaki (7 & 6) - likely to be at RWC with Tonga
Josh Gimblett (6)
Josh Kaifa (7, also 6 & 8))
Marino Mikaele-Tu'u (8/6)
Sam Smith (7)
Will Tremain (7) - leaving? retired?
Halfback
Ere Enari - off-contract, likely to be at RWC with Samoa
Folau Fakatava - possibly be with ABs
Connor McLeod
Brad Weber - possibly with ABs, if not, will he be available (if he goes overseas)?
First five-eighth
Harry Godfrey
Caleb Makene
Lincoln McClutchie
Midfielder
Nick Grigg - left for France on injury replacement contract; now back in NZ for family reasons; will he be back?
Kienan Higgins
Stacey Ili (has been used at 10) - likely to be at RWC with Samoa
Ollie Sapsford (wing, also midfield)
Danny Toala (12, 15, has been used at 10) - likely to be at RWC with Samoa
Outside back
Neria Fomai (13) - likely to be at RWC with Samoa
Jonah Lowe (wing, also 13)
Dennon Robinson-Bartlett
Anzelo Tuitavuki (wing) - likely to be at RWC with Tonga
Lolagi Visinia
Chase Tiatia
Apprentices
Lewis Bush (TH)
Tupou Ma'afu-Afungia (8)
Paoraian Manuel-Harman (wing)
Zac Simpson (midfielder)
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We've lost two LH props to retirement and will possibly lose one TH to the RWC. Personally, I think Lewis Bush is too small for NPC. Who else will come up through club rugby? Or external signings? If Cracker Braidwood doesn't crack the squad, we'll be missing 3 THs. I wonder how Jayden Walker is going? Can Tim Farrell be convinced to wear black & white again? Is Konradd Newland ready? He still seems so green; is this his first year out of school?
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No problems whatsoever at hooker, if they stay healthy.
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Lock is another problem with one certain and one possible retirement, and one at the RWC. If Fabish returns, he may be used at lock. Tuipulotu is either injured or can't crack the MP squad. His one and only outing for the Magpies, last year, wasn't a success. I assume Hunter Morrison will make the squad. He was good for the Hurricanes U20s, is in our Academy squad. Looks proming, but is very green. Same with Matt Monaghan. Tom Allen is probably too young.
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Loosies: if G. Evans has retired, then Tupou Ma'afu-Afungia will likely get his spot. He's going well in the MLR and gets lots of game time. I'm not a fan of Sam Smith, but with Funaki most likely at the RWC, he may be in the squad again. It will be interesting to see how Liam Udy-Johns goes in club rugby. He only played two games for Southland in 2021; was he injured in 2022? Definitely one to watch. I also wonder whether they'll sign Cooper Flanders for Tremain's spot? He's the same age as Devan when he first made the squad. He and Tino Savea will definitely be on the fringes.
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Halfback, another problem area. We may only have McLeod. They can maybe replace one of our test players with a club rugby player, but not more. By the way, Isaac Bracewell has returned to Wellington, so it won't be him. Not keen on Sheridan Rangihuna, who doesn't even play halfback for Tech, does he? There may not be much choice though. Too bad Brad Campbell is based in Dunedin.
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First five: all available if healthy.
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Midfielders: a big problem. Two, most likely three spots to fill. Ollie Sapsford will probably get the 12 jersey, but Kienan Higgins hasn't convinced. I hope Bailyn Sullivan signs with the Magpies, but we need more than one player. They'll be looking at the apprentice midfielder Zach Simpson, but maybe Bethel Malasi is another one from the Academy/Hurricanes U20 who may get a spot. Meni Manase may be too young?
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Wingers: One, possibly two players at the RWC. Robinson-Bartlett didn't even play, last year and will have to fight for a spot (club form will be important). Lowe is the only experienced winger that will be available, if he can stay in one piece. They'll be looking at Paoraian Manuel-Harman and, also for this spot, Bethel Malasia. Maybe Ezra Malo.
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Fullback: I don't really want Tiatia back, but - I can't believe I'm writing this - we may actually need him. Not sure what's up with Visinia, who didn't get much game time last year and also hasn't been spotted at MP, despite being in their squad. I'd beg Zarn Sullivan on my bare knees to come home. That also gives more room to use Makene on the wing.
All in all, I'm a bit worried about this year's NPC, considering the holes our test players are leaving in the squad and the retirement of some other experienced players. We'll either have a lot of talented, but very green rookies; inexperienced (at this level) club players, or rejects from elsewhere. Unless they've done some strong recruiting (either poaching from other provinces, or signing players from overseas, maybe Fijian Drua).
I think trying to bring the Sullivans home should be a priority. Who else is there? Any returnees from overseas? Thinking of Tiaan Falcon, or players who are close to retirement, like Richard Buckman. What are Mark Abbott or Michael Allardice up to after the Top League One season? For the future we have a lot of talent coming through; it's just for this year that we might need some of these older guys.
Our head coach coming back late from the MLR may be problematic in this respect. I doubt the recruiting can wait until his return, so who is making signing decisions in his place?
@Stargazer said in Magpies 2023:
I've been wondering where we may need fresh blood in the Magpies squad, so I've gone throught the list of 2022:
2022 squad: players confirmed for 2023 are bolded (but there aren't many)
Prop
Joe Apikotoa (TH) - possibly at RWC with Tonga
Mark Braidwood (LH)
Lolani Faleiva (LH)
Joel Hintz (TH)
Jason Long(LH, retired)
Pouri Rakete-Stones (LH & TH)
Namatahi Waa(TH, injured in 2022) - retired (not publicly confirmed?)
Hooker
Jacob Devery (injured in 2022)
Kianu Kereru Symes
Gene Syminton
Tyrone Thompson
Lock
Bryn Evans(retired)
Frank Lochore
Tom Parsons - retired?
Brodie Retallick - likely to be with ABs; then to Kobe. Has he already played his last game in black & white hoops?
Isaia Walker-Leawere
Lock/loosie
Sione Tuipulotu
Tiaki Fabish - still playing in Spain; no idea whether or when he'll be back
Loose forward
Gareth Evans (8, also 7 & 6; injured in 2022) - retired?
Devan Flanders (8/6)
Solomone Funaki (7 & 6) - likely to be at RWC with Tonga
Josh Gimblett (6)
Josh Kaifa (7, also 6 & 8))
Marino Mikaele-Tu'u (8/6)
Sam Smith (7)
Will Tremain (7) - leaving? retired?
Halfback
Ere Enari - off-contract, likely to be at RWC with Samoa
Folau Fakatava - possibly be with ABs
Connor McLeod
Brad Weber - possibly with ABs, if not, will he be available (if he goes overseas)?
First five-eighth
Harry Godfrey
Caleb Makene
Lincoln McClutchie
Midfielder
Nick Grigg - left for France on injury replacement contract; now back in NZ for family reasons; will he be back?
Kienan Higgins
Stacey Ili (has been used at 10) - likely to be at RWC with Samoa
Ollie Sapsford (wing, also midfield)
Danny Toala (12, 15, has been used at 10) - likely to be at RWC with Samoa
Outside back
Neria Fomai (13) - likely to be at RWC with Samoa
Jonah Lowe (wing, also 13)
Dennon Robinson-Bartlett
Anzelo Tuitavuki (wing) - likely to be at RWC with Tonga
Lolagi Visinia
Chase Tiatia
Apprentices
Lewis Bush (TH)
Tupou Ma'afu-Afungia (8)
Paoraian Manuel-Harman (wing)
Zac Simpson (midfielder)
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We've lost two LH props to retirement and will possibly lose one TH to the RWC. Personally, I think Lewis Bush is too small for NPC. Who else will come up through club rugby? Or external signings? If Cracker Braidwood doesn't crack the squad, we'll be missing 3 THs. I wonder how Jayden Walker is going? Can Tim Farrell be convinced to wear black & white again? Is Konradd Newland ready? He still seems so green; is this his first year out of school?
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No problems whatsoever at hooker, if they stay healthy.
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Lock is another problem with one certain and one possible retirement, and one at the RWC. If Fabish returns, he may be used at lock. Tuipulotu is either injured or can't crack the MP squad. His one and only outing for the Magpies, last year, wasn't a success. I assume Hunter Morrison will make the squad. He was good for the Hurricanes U20s, is in our Academy squad. Looks proming, but is very green. Same with Matt Monaghan. Tom Allen is probably too young.
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Loosies: if G. Evans has retired, then Tupou Ma'afu-Afungia will likely get his spot. He's going well in the MLR and gets lots of game time. I'm not a fan of Sam Smith, but with Funaki most likely at the RWC, he may be in the squad again. It will be interesting to see how Liam Udy-Johns goes in club rugby. He only played two games for Southland in 2021; was he injured in 2022? Definitely one to watch. I also wonder whether they'll sign Cooper Flanders for Tremain's spot? He's the same age as Devan when he first made the squad. He and Tino Savea will definitely be on the fringes.
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Halfback, another problem area. We may only have McLeod. They can maybe replace one of our test players with a club rugby player, but not more. By the way, Isaac Bracewell has returned to Wellington, so it won't be him. Not keen on Sheridan Rangihuna, who doesn't even play halfback for Tech, does he? There may not be much choice though. Too bad Brad Campbell is based in Dunedin.
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First five: all available if healthy.
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Midfielders: a big problem. Two, most likely three spots to fill. Ollie Sapsford will probably get the 12 jersey, but Kienan Higgins hasn't convinced. I hope Bailyn Sullivan signs with the Magpies, but we need more than one player. They'll be looking at the apprentice midfielder Zach Simpson, but maybe Bethel Malasi is another one from the Academy/Hurricanes U20 who may get a spot. Meni Manase may be too young?
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Wingers: One, possibly two players at the RWC. Robinson-Bartlett didn't even play, last year and will have to fight for a spot (club form will be important). Lowe is the only experienced winger that will be available, if he can stay in one piece. They'll be looking at Paoraian Manuel-Harman and, also for this spot, Bethel Malasia. Maybe Ezra Malo.
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Fullback: I don't really want Tiatia back, but - I can't believe I'm writing this - we may actually need him. Not sure what's up with Visinia, who didn't get much game time last year and also hasn't been spotted at MP, despite being in their squad. I'd beg Zarn Sullivan on my bare knees to come home. That also gives more room to use Makene on the wing.
All in all, I'm a bit worried about this year's NPC, considering the holes our test players are leaving in the squad and the retirement of some other experienced players. We'll either have a lot of talented, but very green rookies; inexperienced (at this level) club players, or rejects from elsewhere. Unless they've done some strong recruiting (either poaching from other provinces, or signing players from overseas, maybe Fijian Drua).
I think trying to bring the Sullivans home should be a priority. Who else is there? Any returnees from overseas? Thinking of Tiaan Falcon, or players who are close to retirement, like Richard Buckman. What are Mark Abbott or Michael Allardice up to after the Top League One season? For the future we have a lot of talent coming through; it's just for this year that we might need some of these older guys.
Our head coach coming back late from the MLR may be problematic in this respect. I doubt the recruiting can wait until his return, so who is making signing decisions in his place?
Good write up.
Namatahi Waa is retired due to the neck injury he sustained playing in MLR last year, which is why he didn't turn out for the Magpies last year when he came back. Is now Taradale coach.
Liam Udy-Johns missed all of the Southland rep season last year due to injury.
Will Tremain is overseas (since late Feb) on a 12-month OE with his girlfriend.
Gareth Evans may not play again. At best, he is taking a break.
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The two guys up from Chch playing midfield for Tech have both looked to be above average players although they have both played just the one game each, and not together as a combination. Admittedly each game has been a walk in the park so will have to wait until more challenging opposition is faced to see them operating under pressure. There must have been a reason why they have come north but will have to circumspect about making enquiries (if I even do so).
Liam Udy-Johns was all class again yesterday and even took over the goal kicking duties during the second half.
Looking forward to the clash with @Stockcar86 Napier Old Boys coming up on April 12 to see how all the Tech newcomers perform as they will certainly not have everything going their own way and will probably come under intensive pressure for the first time this season.
@Number-10 Did Taradale have their usual No 8 play yesterday. I have been impressed with him the few times I have seen him play. He looks strong and powerful with the ball in hand and seems to break, or wriggle out of tackles, frequently. To me he would be worth more than cursory consideration for higher levels of rugby but sadly looks to be about three or four inches too short to really make it as a loose forward at NPC level. Maybe hooker might be another spot for him but we are already very well covered (if injuries allowed everyone to be available) there? -
The two guys up from Chch playing midfield for Tech have both looked to be above average players although they have both played just the one game each, and not together as a combination. Admittedly each game has been a walk in the park so will have to wait until more challenging opposition is faced to see them operating under pressure. There must have been a reason why they have come north but will have to circumspect about making enquiries (if I even do so).
Liam Udy-Johns was all class again yesterday and even took over the goal kicking duties during the second half.
Looking forward to the clash with @Stockcar86 Napier Old Boys coming up on April 12 to see how all the Tech newcomers perform as they will certainly not have everything going their own way and will probably come under intensive pressure for the first time this season.
@Number-10 Did Taradale have their usual No 8 play yesterday. I have been impressed with him the few times I have seen him play. He looks strong and powerful with the ball in hand and seems to break, or wriggle out of tackles, frequently. To me he would be worth more than cursory consideration for higher levels of rugby but sadly looks to be about three or four inches too short to really make it as a loose forward at NPC level. Maybe hooker might be another spot for him but we are already very well covered (if injuries allowed everyone to be available) there?@Higgins Taradale's number 8 (yesterday) was Iakopo Mapu. He's been on the Magpies' fringes for years now (in the Development team). There will be some competition for the free number 8 spot (if Gareth Evans doesn't return), with Tupou Mafi Afungia preferred as an apprentice and for the 1st Heartland Ranfurly Shield game, last year.
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The two guys up from Chch playing midfield for Tech have both looked to be above average players although they have both played just the one game each, and not together as a combination. Admittedly each game has been a walk in the park so will have to wait until more challenging opposition is faced to see them operating under pressure. There must have been a reason why they have come north but will have to circumspect about making enquiries (if I even do so).
Liam Udy-Johns was all class again yesterday and even took over the goal kicking duties during the second half.
Looking forward to the clash with @Stockcar86 Napier Old Boys coming up on April 12 to see how all the Tech newcomers perform as they will certainly not have everything going their own way and will probably come under intensive pressure for the first time this season.
@Number-10 Did Taradale have their usual No 8 play yesterday. I have been impressed with him the few times I have seen him play. He looks strong and powerful with the ball in hand and seems to break, or wriggle out of tackles, frequently. To me he would be worth more than cursory consideration for higher levels of rugby but sadly looks to be about three or four inches too short to really make it as a loose forward at NPC level. Maybe hooker might be another spot for him but we are already very well covered (if injuries allowed everyone to be available) there? -
Yes, Iakopo Mapu was number eight yesterday. Subbed off halfway during the second half and then came back on for the last five.
With ball in hand he is hard to stop, but is a not a ball winner in the lineout.
@Number-10 Hence the need for a few more inches. Moot point given it will not happen but do you think he might be easily liftable in lineouts given his bulk if he had that extra height?
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@Tim It's great how he and other players are doing a lot of fundraising. Several other Chiefs and Hawke's Bay players donating stuff, too. He, Retallick and Thompson have also been visiting schools in Hawke's Bay, recently.
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Magpies (Wider Training Group) have three upcoming fixtures against Manawatu:
April 25 at Rongotea
May 17 at Napier
June 5 at Dannevirke@Number-10 It's a pity they just play Manawatū and not other teams, but I assume the Magpies will play several preseason games as well.
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@Number-10 It's a pity they just play Manawatū and not other teams, but I assume the Magpies will play several preseason games as well.
@Stargazer So is there any word on signings? I do believe Blake Gibson is one. But things have gone pretty quiet.
