Final: Chiefs v Crusaders
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Clayton McMillan - good on him
I hope the criticism of Sam Cane isn't personal or hyperbole.
I don't prefer him as AB captain and not convinced he was top 7 in NZ last year but he is a great player for the Chiefs and given his all for the ABs.
I'd be interested in any stats on the 7s speed to rucks etc this year in the Super. I suspect Cane is a little quicker than he was last year. -
It's a most interesting phenomenon on rugby threads should there be a tight game with debatable refereeing decisions.
The team on the winning side immediately leap to the refs defense, the system, the application, the standard are all perfect and the people saying otherwise are just sore losers.
And on the other side of course the entire system is broken in terms of blatant favoritism and needs urgent review.
The ironical part is that when the situation is reversed those who not long ago leapt to the defense of the referees and all systems involved upon their team losing descend upon them with the exact same ire the "sore losers" displayed previously. And all the "sore losers" then leap to the defense of the referee and all system involved as once again being perfect.
We all know the truth lies somewhere in the middle and neither side really does themselves any favors. With such attitudes all debate is rendered useless as the "side your on" depends entirety on the outcome of the game and nothing to do at all with the actual quality of the refs/refereeing systems performance.
It's ridiculous to expect that the ref does not have an influence on the game.
It's equally ridiculous to expect that we will ever make a perfect system - unless we do away with refs entirely and use robots to do it.
The "rub of the green" is one of those intangibles in sport that we know has an effect on the game but you can't control it on the day. One day you will get the 50/50 calls, the other you wont. You hope over time it simply balances out. It's all part of sport which makes it unpredictable and interesting and results in upsets we might not otherwise predict.
@Windows97 On the contrary...
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/5006/waikato-v-tasman-premiership-final/101?page=6
Here you see a perfect example of gracious losing - the previous page notes discussion of some contentious calls - though not by me.
Much like the Chiefs we died of self-inflicted wounds that night!
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@Toddy said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
I didn't realise Cane never fronted the press conference afterwards. Appears pretty gutless unless he had genuine reason to skip it.
ffs.. way to get sucked into clickbait.. especially some from Reason.
chiefs have co-captains - cane did the post match on field, webby did the after match.
@WillieTheWaiter I didnt see the McMillan post game presser, but I distinctly remember both Cane and Weber doing on field interviews. Weber’s one was quite emotional.
I think if there are co-captains they should both attend the post game presser. It’s probably a good way to share the questions and limit the pressure on one player.
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@Toddy said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
I didn't realise Cane never fronted the press conference afterwards. Appears pretty gutless unless he had genuine reason to skip it.
ffs.. way to get sucked into clickbait.. especially some from Reason.
chiefs have co-captains - cane did the post match on field, webby did the after match.
@WillieTheWaiter said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
@Toddy said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
I didn't realise Cane never fronted the press conference afterwards. Appears pretty gutless unless he had genuine reason to skip it.
ffs.. way to get sucked into clickbait.. especially some from Reason.
chiefs have co-captains - cane did the post match on field, webby did the after match.
Yep Willie, haven't read it as I won't help clickbait journos like Reason, but I saw someone who looked an asful lot Cane being interviewed post match, and pointed that out to someone who then said oh I wasn't watching after game properly!!
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@WillieTheWaiter I didnt see the McMillan post game presser, but I distinctly remember both Cane and Weber doing on field interviews. Weber’s one was quite emotional.
I think if there are co-captains they should both attend the post game presser. It’s probably a good way to share the questions and limit the pressure on one player.
@ACT-Crusader said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
@WillieTheWaiter I didnt see the McMillan post game presser, but I distinctly remember both Cane and Weber doing on field interviews. Weber’s one was quite emotional.
I think if there are co-captains they should both attend the post game presser. It’s probably a good way to share the questions and limit the pressure on one player.
Unless of course the Coach tells them to give it a miss.
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I think the ref abuse is crap, but anyone thinking it only Chiefs fans that are idiots have short memories. Ask Wayne Barnes! Asl Rayanal etc etc, see we live in this virtual world where it is considered ok to abuse officials, administrators and players. Too f***en many from wherever in world are gutless wonders who hide behind keyboards or in crowds. Christ I sat at tests for a couple of years when Quade Cooper was the subject of booing etc, I never had a problem telling the ones around me that did it I thought it was crap etc, got the odd comment bac but normally just nothing!
@Dan54 said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
I think the ref abuse is crap, but anyone thinking it only Chiefs fans that are idiots have short memories. Ask Wayne Barnes! Asl Rayanal etc etc, see we live in this virtual world where it is considered ok to abuse officials, administrators and players. Too f***en many from wherever in world are gutless wonders who hide behind keyboards or in crowds. Christ I sat at tests for a couple of years when Quade Cooper was the subject of booing etc, I never had a problem telling the ones around me that did it I thought it was crap etc, got the odd comment bac but normally just nothing!
yeah, hasn;t been a fun thread to catch up on, definitely some examples of poor winners and poor losers
I have to say i know the 2015 result was controversial too but the wellington fans seemed to be either just disappointed or reasonably friendly banter, dont remember full on abuse, all pretty gracious "losers"
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what a shame. As a neutral I thought it was a well-coached, high skill and energy game!
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@kiwi_expat said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders (poll in first post):
@Damo said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders (poll in first post):
Crusaders in a canter. They just have a knack of coming good this time of year.
Blues were poor last week, but mainly Crusaders were good.
Nah, Crusaders played their final last week, can't see them backing up such a performance, Chiefs didn't really fire against the Reds & Brumbies, so I have a strong feeling Chiefs will put it all together for the final.
And if Razor manages to beat them, despite all that and them having to ask his old school friend's nephew's class to play because of injury, Razor will ascend into rugby heaven.
@Bones said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
@kiwi_expat said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders (poll in first post):
@Damo said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders (poll in first post):
Crusaders in a canter. They just have a knack of coming good this time of year.
Blues were poor last week, but mainly Crusaders were good.
Nah, Crusaders played their final last week, can't see them backing up such a performance, Chiefs didn't really fire against the Reds & Brumbies, so I have a strong feeling Chiefs will put it all together for the final.
And if Razor manages to beat them, despite all that and them having to ask his old school friend's nephew's class to play because of injury, Razor will ascend into rugby heaven.
@Bones Did you know something we didn't? Have you been inside Crusaders camp all along?
A beaming Scott Robertson sure looked like he was in “seventh heaven” as he strode through Christchurch Airport, mission accomplished.
“This year, we wanted to go to heaven, seventh heaven. And we realised to go to heaven you’ve got to have immortals in your team, and we’ve got a lot, we believe,” Robertson said, revealing part of this year’s theme which drove the team.
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O’Keeffe said he’d received a call from McMillan after the match. ”Clayton McMillan was excellent, he called me to see how I was, that was the first thing he wanted to worry about, nothing about the game, and I truly respect the man for doing that,” he told SENZ, adding younger referees around New Zealand had thanked him for speaking up.@KiwiMurph Really glad to hear that.
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O’Keeffe said he’d received a call from McMillan after the match. ”Clayton McMillan was excellent, he called me to see how I was, that was the first thing he wanted to worry about, nothing about the game, and I truly respect the man for doing that,” he told SENZ, adding younger referees around New Zealand had thanked him for speaking up.@KiwiMurph said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
O’Keeffe said he’d received a call from McMillan after the match. ”Clayton McMillan was excellent, he called me to see how I was, that was the first thing he wanted to worry about, nothing about the game, and I truly respect the man for doing that,” he told SENZ, adding younger referees around New Zealand had thanked him for speaking up.That's a good article, up until this year (and completely setting aside this match) both him and Gardner seemed the best of an average SH bunch to me (I know some think they're terrible), but I thought they've both been below their usual standards this year.
I just did a rewatch, I'd watched the first half on my phone at the pub so missed some of it, and it's the little things that annoy me personally (rather than the big ones making the media), which is the issue I've had with him overall this year.
In saying all that I think he's handled himself really well in all this and he comes across very professional and thoughtful about the job.
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Sam Cane being a has been shithouse player, who would not be in any other tier one XV, was one of the main reasons that the Chiefs lost.
ABs go out in the QF, and the main reason is loser Cane is preferred over a vastly better player at international level for the last two years - Papalii.
What tier one team would Cane start for? None. He is shit.
@Tim said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
Sam Cane being a has been shithouse player, who would not be in any other tier one XV
What tier one team would Cane start for? None. He is shit.
Plenty
Easier to say who he wouldn’t play for at either 6 or 7
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@Windows97 On the contrary...
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/5006/waikato-v-tasman-premiership-final/101?page=6
Here you see a perfect example of gracious losing - the previous page notes discussion of some contentious calls - though not by me.
Much like the Chiefs we died of self-inflicted wounds that night!
@Chris-B said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
@Windows97 On the contrary...
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/5006/waikato-v-tasman-premiership-final/101?page=6
Here you see a perfect example of gracious losing - the previous page notes discussion of some contentious calls - though not by me.
Much like the Chiefs we died of self-inflicted wounds that night!
Depends on the circumstances. Wellington has been on the wrong side of of lopsided reffing and have been pissed off. Same with the AB
This game with a one sided penalty count and likewise yellow cards. And a badly missed forward pass. And also a close game. Fans from the losing side were always going to be annoyed
But if my team lose and the reffing is fair I just accept the better team won and move on.
In this game I thought the better team lost. Whether it was due to poor discipline or biased reffing I just don't know. But can understand why chiefs fabs are annoyed. It's good to see some strong feelings from the fans but some have gone too far. As NZ fans did with Barnes
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@KiwiMurph said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
O’Keeffe said he’d received a call from McMillan after the match. ”Clayton McMillan was excellent, he called me to see how I was, that was the first thing he wanted to worry about, nothing about the game, and I truly respect the man for doing that,” he told SENZ, adding younger referees around New Zealand had thanked him for speaking up.That's a good article, up until this year (and completely setting aside this match) both him and Gardner seemed the best of an average SH bunch to me (I know some think they're terrible), but I thought they've both been below their usual standards this year.
I just did a rewatch, I'd watched the first half on my phone at the pub so missed some of it, and it's the little things that annoy me personally (rather than the big ones making the media), which is the issue I've had with him overall this year.
In saying all that I think he's handled himself really well in all this and he comes across very professional and thoughtful about the job.
@Nepia i really dont think World Rugby does any favours for the officials
Limited powers to the TMO on forward passes is massive one for me , i have no doubt despite the on field officials all missing the forward pass thrown by Jack Goodhue , Brendon Pickerall the TMO along with everyone who was watching the game saw that it was forward , the irony is had the Crusaders scored off that play it would have been bought back for a forward pass .
How crazy is that ..?, for me you your leaving your officials in quite the pickle .D Mac being pulled up for being in the 10 was an interesting one as well , imagine if the ball was dropped in the act of scoring , its probably unlikely the referee and the TMO go back to look at D Macs infraction .
I get the clarity in and around the non awarding of the try , but you do wonder if it had been picked up if there was no try
No wonder many are confused -
@pakman the more you post the sweeter the victory is.
Forget the NZRU looking into anything, the Chiefs need to have a full on review on whoever made the decision to go for that penalty kick from beyond half way. On a night when the conditions were not going to give the kicker any love it seemed a very poor and low percentage decision.
Was it because they didn’t trust their set piece? (Lineout risk)
Was it because DMac thought I did it last week why not tonight? (Different conditions)That penalty gave Chiefs some needed momentum, but the decision to kick for goal IMO took that momentum away.
@ACT-Crusader said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
@pakman the more you post the sweeter the victory is.
Forget the NZRU looking into anything, the Chiefs need to have a full on review on whoever made the decision to go for that penalty kick from beyond half way. On a night when the conditions were not going to give the kicker any love it seemed a very poor and low percentage decision.
Was it because they didn’t trust their set piece? (Lineout risk)
Was it because DMac thought I did it last week why not tonight? (Different conditions)That penalty gave Chiefs some needed momentum, but the decision to kick for goal IMO took that momentum away.
Stolen victories are the sweetest aren't they!
Three yellow cards, converted non-try awarded, a pearler of an oppo move scrubbed off because of the one truly competent act of the TMO in the game, some poor decision making by opp in last 15 and Jesters STILL only two points ahead before meaningless last penalty. Clearly a superior team.
I couldn't agree more on the DMac penalty.
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@Cyclops Yes, no technology needed for that one. The officials would have been able to see Dmac standing several metres in front of a line on the field with the naked eye. A line he should have been behind.
@Stargazer said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
@Cyclops Yes, no technology needed for that one. The officials would have been able to see Dmac standing several metres in front of a line on the field with the naked eye. A line he should have been behind.
Remind me what the on field decision was?
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@ACT-Crusader said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
I really want the Chiefs to win because if they don’t the whinging about the ref and blaming others will be unbearable….
I think you won the thread.
If only the mighty Chiefs had been able to cope with a scrum to them on the halfway being converted to a lineout to us on the halfway, the way we coped with ALB taking out our All Black wing and not being red carded...
We would have been thrashed, I tell you - thrashed!!!
@Chris-B said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
@ACT-Crusader said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
I really want the Chiefs to win because if they don’t the whinging about the ref and blaming others will be unbearable….
I think you won the thread.
If only the mighty Chiefs had been able to cope with a scrum to them on the halfway being converted to a lineout to us on the halfway, the way we coped with ALB taking out our All Black wing and not being red carded...
We would have been thrashed, I tell you - thrashed!!!
LOL, you're actually highlighting that the Jesters weren't good enough to win without all the stuff.
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@Nepia i really dont think World Rugby does any favours for the officials
Limited powers to the TMO on forward passes is massive one for me , i have no doubt despite the on field officials all missing the forward pass thrown by Jack Goodhue , Brendon Pickerall the TMO along with everyone who was watching the game saw that it was forward , the irony is had the Crusaders scored off that play it would have been bought back for a forward pass .
How crazy is that ..?, for me you your leaving your officials in quite the pickle .D Mac being pulled up for being in the 10 was an interesting one as well , imagine if the ball was dropped in the act of scoring , its probably unlikely the referee and the TMO go back to look at D Macs infraction .
I get the clarity in and around the non awarding of the try , but you do wonder if it had been picked up if there was no try
No wonder many are confused@Steven-Harris said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
@Nepia i really dont think World Rugby does any favours for the officials
Limited powers to the TMO on forward passes is massive one for me , i have no doubt despite the on field officials all missing the forward pass thrown by Jack Goodhue , Brendon Pickerall the TMO along with everyone who was watching the game saw that it was forward , the irony is had the Crusaders scored off that play it would have been bought back for a forward pass .
How crazy is that ..?, for me you your leaving your officials in quite the pickle .D Mac being pulled up for being in the 10 was an interesting one as well , imagine if the ball was dropped in the act of scoring , its probably unlikely the referee and the TMO go back to look at D Macs infraction .
I get the clarity in and around the non awarding of the try , but you do wonder if it had been picked up if there was no try
No wonder many are confusedCompletely agree.
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@Chris-B said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
@Windows97 On the contrary...
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/5006/waikato-v-tasman-premiership-final/101?page=6
Here you see a perfect example of gracious losing - the previous page notes discussion of some contentious calls - though not by me.
Much like the Chiefs we died of self-inflicted wounds that night!
Depends on the circumstances. Wellington has been on the wrong side of of lopsided reffing and have been pissed off. Same with the AB
This game with a one sided penalty count and likewise yellow cards. And a badly missed forward pass. And also a close game. Fans from the losing side were always going to be annoyed
But if my team lose and the reffing is fair I just accept the better team won and move on.
In this game I thought the better team lost. Whether it was due to poor discipline or biased reffing I just don't know. But can understand why chiefs fabs are annoyed. It's good to see some strong feelings from the fans but some have gone too far. As NZ fans did with Barnes
@Winger said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
@Chris-B said in Final: Chiefs v Crusaders:
In this game I thought the better team lost. Whether it was due to poor discipline or biased reffing I just don't know.
The better team on paper or the better team on the night?
See, I thought the Crusaders dominated the majority of the match - largely on the back of the Chiefs' ill-discipline, though we started much better and they looked rattled from the get go.
I thought we dominated the first half and might pay for leaving too many points out there. That looked somewhat likely in the first 25 minutes of the second half, when they got on top. But, the tide got turned again and we clearly had the best of the final 15 minutes.
The stats largely seem to back me up - we clearly won territory, possession and time in the opposition 22. We won the set piece because we smoked their lineout and scrums were largely even. Crucially, their discipline was terrible and given ALB's yellow has been upgraded to a red, they were lucky not to be punished a lot worse. That was the most costly reffing error of the night - far bigger impact than a missed forward pass.
With the massive advantage of being at home and with the Crusaders missing a bunch of frontline players - the Chiefs should be absolutely kicking themselves for blowing that game.
But, I don't think they were hard done by on the night.
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Chiefs looked the better team despite playing almost half the game with 14 men.
McMillan won this contest, Crusaders had no answers on attack, their defense suffocated them, Chiefs created more opportunities & found more space with the ball. Crusaders scoring from those rolling mauls were inevitable while opposition down a forward, Crusaders looked mostly clueless while it was 15 v 15 (22 of their 25 points came when Chiefs down to 14).
Chiefs IMO were the better side for the majority of the game. This wasn't like the comprehensive dismantling of the Blues (mentality & tactically) at Eden Park last year, this title involved a significant element of luck, the Chiefs deserved this one and I really feel for Clayton and those departing players.
