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Plus she would have made a better Predator than JCVD and they would have saved on the suit.
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Would have preferred Tana myself.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
She's a rare and interesting case.
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Fair play Sharon
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Would have preferred Tana myself.
Now that is a good call.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
She's a rare and interesting case. Intersex and assigned female at birth and isn't trying to be what she isn't - unlike Lia Thomas.
It's a tricky one and according to what you read, people have tried their best to resolve the issue even though it's been a bit cack-handed at times. Not helped by the Sth African government screaming racism either.
Women shouldn’t have to compete against her. The argument from South Africans that her internal testes is no different to Ian Thorpes massive feet giving him an advantage is pathetic too .
There were three top female runners from Africa who turned out to be intersex . She was the most famous, I couldn’t find the thirds name although I didn’t look too hard . I’d feel some sympathy for them if they didn’t hide behind politics/racism when they were told they couldn’t compete against women who didn’t have testosterone coursing through their veins .
Intersex runner Annet Negesa fighting for everyone's right to compete in sport
Ugandan middle-distance runner Annet Negesa was preparing for the London Olympics when she was told she had high testosterone levels. What followed effectively ended her career and up-ended her life. Now she's speaking out.
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The IAAF agrees with you on competing against women and has tried to find a solution with supressing testosterone levels which seems sensible. Then the "racist!" shouting started...
Some of the arguments like foot size and racism are quite dumb but this case isn't black and white (no pun intended) as she's intersex and been assigned female sex at birth. Think this is a genuinely difficult case and can see both sides of the argument.
As an aside, an elite runner tells me this issue can cut both ways as females are physiologically better at ultramarathons than men - an intersex man with xx chromosomes would have an advantage over other men.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
As an aside, an elite runner tells me this issue can cut both ways as females are physiologically better at ultramarathons than men - an intersex man with xx chromosomes would have an advantage over other men.
Why have a male and female classification then?
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To give blokes a fair crack of the whip?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
She's a rare and interesting case. Intersex and assigned female at birth and isn't trying to be what she isn't - unlike Lia Thomas.
It's a tricky one and according to what you read, people have tried their best to resolve the issue even though it's been a bit cack-handed at times. Not helped by the Sth African government screaming racism either.
Agree entirely. Caster's case should not be conflicted with the transgender debate. They are not two of the same.
I hold a slightly different view on her in that I think Thorpe's feet is a valid comparison. I don't really have a problem with her competing.
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There is also the human aspect. Imagine how Semenya (or others like her) feel. I read an account from a female Olympic athlete many years ago when I was at Uni. It was a well written piece arguing against the testing females athletes went through to 'prove' they were 'female'. The bit I was struck by, and the notion has stayed with me years later, is the fear she described as she waited for the results. She was basically thinking 'What if the test says I am not 'female' enough?'
It's something that never occurred to me.
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@MiketheSnow said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Why have a male and female classification then?
Radical Transexual advocate!
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
She's a rare and interesting case. Intersex and assigned female at birth and isn't trying to be what she isn't - unlike Lia Thomas.
It's a tricky one and according to what you read, people have tried their best to resolve the issue even though it's been a bit cack-handed at times. Not helped by the Sth African government screaming racism either.
Agree entirely. Caster's case should not be conflicted with the transgender debate. They are not two of the same.
I hold a slightly different view on her in that I think Thorpe's feet is a valid comparison. I don't really have a problem with her competing.
You don’t have a problem with her competing? You’re not the one who’s going to miss out on prize money , scholarship opportunities or sponsorships or medals. Women who have no chance to compete with her because she has internal testes are though . Having male hormones is nothing like Ian Thorpes feet .
Would you feel comfortable with her competing against women in a combat sport ?
It’s obviously a shit situation for her and other intersex female athletes , I think the women who aren’t intersex deserve a level playing field though.
Zero sympathy for her for the reasons I’ve already mentioned. -
I think that tweet highlights how much the Trans issue has poisoned debate.
I agree with Davies on banning trans athletes and get her point on Semenya's testosterone levels - but what has the sex/gender of Semenya's partner got to do with it? Just comes across as a poor attempt at dog-whistling and demeans her argument.
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@paremata said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
You don’t have a problem with her competing? You’re not the one who’s going to miss out on prize money , scholarship opportunities or sponsorships or medals. Women who have no chance to compete with her because she has internal testes are though . Having male hormones is nothing like Ian Thorpes feet .
Would you feel comfortable with her competing against women in a combat sport ?
It’s obviously a shit situation for her and other intersex female athletes , I think the women who aren’t intersex deserve a level playing field though.
Zero sympathy for her for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.Yeah, I think the case is very tricky and I don't see a solution which is fair. Woman aren't missing out because Caster Semenya is a woman. She's not an ex-dude which is the crux of the Trans issue.
Ultimately, not everybody can be a top level athlete & they do have certain genetic things that put them there. I've never seen Caster naked (and have no desire to) but as she was female at birth, then I have to assume that, if you put science aside, then she is in actual fact, a woman.
Combat sports? I'd feel pretty comfortable that Rhonda Rousey, Serena Williams would take her down, no problems.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
She's a rare and interesting case. Intersex and assigned female at birth and isn't trying to be what she isn't - unlike Lia Thomas.
It's a tricky one and according to what you read, people have tried their best to resolve the issue even though it's been a bit cack-handed at times. Not helped by the Sth African government screaming racism either.
Agree entirely. Caster's case should not be conflicted with the transgender debate. They are not two of the same.
I hold a slightly different view on her in that I think Thorpe's feet is a valid comparison. I don't really have a problem with her competing.
If a woman had big feet they would be able to compete as a woman as long as they meet the other guidelines. Like not having male levels of testosterone. And this seems like a reasonable rule to restrict entry in the female category (although I'm certainly not an expert and I know other disagree)
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@paremata said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
You don’t have a problem with her competing? You’re not the one who’s going to miss out on prize money , scholarship opportunities or sponsorships or medals. Women who have no chance to compete with her because she has internal testes are though . Having male hormones is nothing like Ian Thorpes feet .
Would you feel comfortable with her competing against women in a combat sport ?
It’s obviously a shit situation for her and other intersex female athletes , I think the women who aren’t intersex deserve a level playing field though.
Zero sympathy for her for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.Yeah, I think the case is very tricky and I don't see a solution which is fair. Woman aren't missing out because Caster Semenya is a woman.
Yes they are.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The IAAF agrees with you on competing against women and has tried to find a solution with supressing testosterone levels which seems sensible
Can't say I agree. Just have men's and women's categories. It's objective, measurable and logical. Everything else is subjective.
Testosterone is one measure of many.
Throw in muscle density, skeletal differences, femur length, hip angles, tendon and ligament strength ... am sure I can google more.
Adolescent girls are so much more susceptible to stuff like Osgood-Schlatters, and the other knee complication which I can't remember the name of that my daughter had.
Men's and women's bodies are different.
Changing one parameter does not make sexes equal. You can make Testosterone levels equal but you can't cancel out all advantage.Have women's sport exclusive to women, or just have open sport.
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
IAU 100 km World Championships - Wikipedia
