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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
She's a rare and interesting case. Intersex and assigned female at birth and isn't trying to be what she isn't - unlike Lia Thomas.
It's a tricky one and according to what you read, people have tried their best to resolve the issue even though it's been a bit cack-handed at times. Not helped by the Sth African government screaming racism either.
Agree entirely. Caster's case should not be conflicted with the transgender debate. They are not two of the same.
I hold a slightly different view on her in that I think Thorpe's feet is a valid comparison. I don't really have a problem with her competing.
You don’t have a problem with her competing? You’re not the one who’s going to miss out on prize money , scholarship opportunities or sponsorships or medals. Women who have no chance to compete with her because she has internal testes are though . Having male hormones is nothing like Ian Thorpes feet .
Would you feel comfortable with her competing against women in a combat sport ?
It’s obviously a shit situation for her and other intersex female athletes , I think the women who aren’t intersex deserve a level playing field though.
Zero sympathy for her for the reasons I’ve already mentioned. -
I think that tweet highlights how much the Trans issue has poisoned debate.
I agree with Davies on banning trans athletes and get her point on Semenya's testosterone levels - but what has the sex/gender of Semenya's partner got to do with it? Just comes across as a poor attempt at dog-whistling and demeans her argument.
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@paremata said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
You don’t have a problem with her competing? You’re not the one who’s going to miss out on prize money , scholarship opportunities or sponsorships or medals. Women who have no chance to compete with her because she has internal testes are though . Having male hormones is nothing like Ian Thorpes feet .
Would you feel comfortable with her competing against women in a combat sport ?
It’s obviously a shit situation for her and other intersex female athletes , I think the women who aren’t intersex deserve a level playing field though.
Zero sympathy for her for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.Yeah, I think the case is very tricky and I don't see a solution which is fair. Woman aren't missing out because Caster Semenya is a woman. She's not an ex-dude which is the crux of the Trans issue.
Ultimately, not everybody can be a top level athlete & they do have certain genetic things that put them there. I've never seen Caster naked (and have no desire to) but as she was female at birth, then I have to assume that, if you put science aside, then she is in actual fact, a woman.
Combat sports? I'd feel pretty comfortable that Rhonda Rousey, Serena Williams would take her down, no problems.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
She's a rare and interesting case. Intersex and assigned female at birth and isn't trying to be what she isn't - unlike Lia Thomas.
It's a tricky one and according to what you read, people have tried their best to resolve the issue even though it's been a bit cack-handed at times. Not helped by the Sth African government screaming racism either.
Agree entirely. Caster's case should not be conflicted with the transgender debate. They are not two of the same.
I hold a slightly different view on her in that I think Thorpe's feet is a valid comparison. I don't really have a problem with her competing.
If a woman had big feet they would be able to compete as a woman as long as they meet the other guidelines. Like not having male levels of testosterone. And this seems like a reasonable rule to restrict entry in the female category (although I'm certainly not an expert and I know other disagree)
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@paremata said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
You don’t have a problem with her competing? You’re not the one who’s going to miss out on prize money , scholarship opportunities or sponsorships or medals. Women who have no chance to compete with her because she has internal testes are though . Having male hormones is nothing like Ian Thorpes feet .
Would you feel comfortable with her competing against women in a combat sport ?
It’s obviously a shit situation for her and other intersex female athletes , I think the women who aren’t intersex deserve a level playing field though.
Zero sympathy for her for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.Yeah, I think the case is very tricky and I don't see a solution which is fair. Woman aren't missing out because Caster Semenya is a woman.
Yes they are.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
The IAAF agrees with you on competing against women and has tried to find a solution with supressing testosterone levels which seems sensible
Can't say I agree. Just have men's and women's categories. It's objective, measurable and logical. Everything else is subjective.
Testosterone is one measure of many.
Throw in muscle density, skeletal differences, femur length, hip angles, tendon and ligament strength ... am sure I can google more.
Adolescent girls are so much more susceptible to stuff like Osgood-Schlatters, and the other knee complication which I can't remember the name of that my daughter had.
Men's and women's bodies are different.
Changing one parameter does not make sexes equal. You can make Testosterone levels equal but you can't cancel out all advantage.Have women's sport exclusive to women, or just have open sport.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
ultramarathons
But most sport is not ultramarathons. Not sure "women are good at ultramarathons" is an argument to allow men carte blanche into women's sport.
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@antipodean I’m not going to lie and say I know what all of those mean and the advantage they give.
Everyone just talks about testosterone but what about all the other factors that make her female? And where does the testosterone levels produced stand on the male or female graphs?
If she only has one advan (testosterone) how does this stack up vs other female athletes advantages over your average female (stamina, lung capacity, heart size, natural physique, hand eye co ordination etc).
I’m happy to accept the rulings from scientists here (which are almost all in her favour to compete as a woman).
Also accept there are potential contradictions on the above with my views on the trans debate, but this is a rather difficult subject in that way.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean I’m not going to lie and say I know what all of those mean and the advantage they give.
Everyone just talks about testosterone but what about all the other factors that make her female? And where does the testosterone levels produced stand on the male or female graphs?
Emma Hilton is an expert - she's a developmental biologist. The point her and Sharron Davies are making is that Caster is a male, competing unfairly against females.
It's irrelevant if Caster produces enough testosterone to compete professionally against men because Caster is competing against females who don't have the benefit of testes providing testosterone. And the science is clear about the benefits to athleticism that brings.
I agree it's not the same as mentally ill, second rate male athletes taking the piss, but we either make female sport sacrosanct, or we send a very disturbing signal to young women everywhere.
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@booboo said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Just have men's and women's categories. It's objective, measurable and logical. Everything else is subjective.
But in what category do you put an athlete with all the external, physical attributes of a female athlete and has been registered and regarded as female since birth?
Do you give all female athletes a mandatory chromosome test to ensure there are no XY's there? Do you do mandatory testosterone checks before deciding and allowing people to compete in women's events?
I think the issue in a small number of cases it's problematic and related to a genuine medical condition. It's a situation which is unfair on everyone, sadly. Seems to me the IAAF have made a genuine attempt to resolve this but it clearly needs more work.
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@booboo said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
ultramarathons
But most sport is not ultramarathons. Not sure "women are good at ultramarathons" is an argument to allow men carte blanche into women's sport.
No, def. not saying that, just pointing out it can cut both ways for intersex people
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@antipodean said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean I’m not going to lie and say I know what all of those mean and the advantage they give.
Everyone just talks about testosterone but what about all the other factors that make her female? And where does the testosterone levels produced stand on the male or female graphs?
Emma Hilton is an expert - she's a developmental biologist. The point her and Sharron Davies are making is that Caster is a male, competing unfairly against females.
Carol Hooven post is far more supportive of your views in my opinion. That does make me think.
We diverge tho as you call Caster male, which doesn’t seem to support her (external) genetalia.
It's irrelevant if Caster produces enough testosterone to compete professionally against men because Caster is competing against females who don't have the benefit of testes providing testosterone. And the science is clear about the benefits to athleticism that brings.
Woman do produce testosterone, hence why the question is valid and why the discussion of these levels / advantages vs other natural benefits is worth having.
I agree it's not the same as mentally ill, second rate male athletes taking the piss, but we either make female sport sacrosanct, or we send a very disturbing signal to young women everywhere.
Ok, so what signal are we sending re CS? That despite being an athlete she can’t really compete as she’s too male for female and too female to stand a chance against men?
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@paremata said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
You don’t have a problem with her competing? You’re not the one who’s going to miss out on prize money , scholarship opportunities or sponsorships or medals. Women who have no chance to compete with her because she has internal testes are though . Having male hormones is nothing like Ian Thorpes feet .
Would you feel comfortable with her competing against women in a combat sport ?
It’s obviously a shit situation for her and other intersex female athletes , I think the women who aren’t intersex deserve a level playing field though.
Zero sympathy for her for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.Yeah, I think the case is very tricky and I don't see a solution which is fair. Woman aren't missing out because Caster Semenya is a woman. She's not an ex-dude which is the crux of the Trans issue.
Ultimately, not everybody can be a top level athlete & they do have certain genetic things that put them there. I've never seen Caster naked (and have no desire to) but as she was female at birth, then I have to assume that, if you put science aside, then she is in actual fact, a woman.
Combat sports? I'd feel pretty comfortable that Rhonda Rousey, Serena Williams would take her down, no problems.
Honestly can’t tell if you’re trolling.
First you say having internal testes is similar to having big feet now you say you’d be comfortable with her competing in combat sports because Rhonda Rousey could take her down? So because you think one of the top athletes in mma could beat her all the women she’d have to beat along the way to get to a title fight should just deal with competing against what is effectively a man strength wise?
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Ok, so what signal are we sending re CS? That despite being an athlete she can’t really compete as she’s too male for female and too female to stand a chance against men?
And this is exactly at the heart of it. Women's sport is a protected class, but male/female characteristics (in a very very few individuals) are more shades of grey than black and white. And the issue is that defining 'eligible to compete in elite protected classes' may be a different classification to 'live your life as you choose, male or female'. The other point is that those inbuilt advantages are like being really tall; if yuo're 7 foot in America, you have something like a 1 in 16 chance of playing in the NBA. Likewise, if you are intersex presenting female, I suspect yoru chance of being at the elite end of Women's competition is very very high.
Somewhere you have to draw a line, and somewhere someone with talent and work ethic and inbuilt advantages will fall on the wrong side. One of the fundamental issues is there is not a lot of research on this historically - and it's suddenly become a massive headache. The Indian sprinter Dutee Chand rightly challenged her exclusion as there was no science behind the testosterone limits adopted. Once the science came in, it generally support IAAF's position - but you actually have to go and do the work.
For what it's worth, I think sports are starting to get to a 'fair' place. IF you go through puberty with high testosterone, or produce high levels of it, you can't easily compete in protected classes (called 'women' at the moment)
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@paremata said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
So because you think one of the top athletes in mma could beat her all the women she’d have to beat along the way to get to a title fight should just deal with competing against what is effectively a man strength wise?
Not trolling, but can you put some grammar into that as I really don't understand it and would like to!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@booboo said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
Just have men's and women's categories. It's objective, measurable and logical. Everything else is subjective.
But in what category do you put an athlete with all the external, physical attributes of a female athlete and has been registered and regarded as female since birth?
The argument re Semenya is that "she" is actually male. I'm reading that "her" affliction only affects males. Apologies for the quotation marks. One case I'd not object to they/them pronouns ...
Do you give all female athletes a mandatory chromosome test to ensure there are no XY's there? Do you do mandatory testosterone checks before deciding and allowing people to compete in women's events?
Thet already do at elite level.
I think the issue in a small number of cases it's problematic and related to a genuine medical condition. It's a situation which is unfair on everyone, sadly. Seems to me the IAAF have made a genuine attempt to resolve this but it clearly needs more work.
DSDs are an outlier, even so I'm reading that people/athletes are still either male or female. It's still objective and measurable.
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@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean I’m not going to lie and say I know what all of those mean and the advantage they give.
Everyone just talks about testosterone but what about all the other factors that make her female? And where does the testosterone levels produced stand on the male or female graphs?
Emma Hilton is an expert - she's a developmental biologist. The point her and Sharron Davies are making is that Caster is a male, competing unfairly against females.
Carol Hooven post is far more supportive of your views in my opinion. That does make me think.
We diverge tho as you call Caster male, which doesn’t seem to support her (external) genetalia.
It's irrelevant if Caster produces enough testosterone to compete professionally against men because Caster is competing against females who don't have the benefit of testes providing testosterone. And the science is clear about the benefits to athleticism that brings.
Woman do produce testosterone, hence why the question is valid and why the discussion of these levels / advantages vs other natural benefits is worth having.
I agree it's not the same as mentally ill, second rate male athletes taking the piss, but we either make female sport sacrosanct, or we send a very disturbing signal to young women everywhere.
Ok, so what signal are we sending re CS? That despite being an athlete she can’t really compete as she’s too male for female and too female to stand a chance against men?
As I read it, Semenya is male. There are lots of males who are not competitive at elite level. Semenya is one of them.
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@booboo said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@MajorPom said in Transgender debate, in sport, in general:
@antipodean I’m not going to lie and say I know what all of those mean and the advantage they give.
Everyone just talks about testosterone but what about all the other factors that make her female? And where does the testosterone levels produced stand on the male or female graphs?
Emma Hilton is an expert - she's a developmental biologist. The point her and Sharron Davies are making is that Caster is a male, competing unfairly against females.
Carol Hooven post is far more supportive of your views in my opinion. That does make me think.
We diverge tho as you call Caster male, which doesn’t seem to support her (external) genetalia.
It's irrelevant if Caster produces enough testosterone to compete professionally against men because Caster is competing against females who don't have the benefit of testes providing testosterone. And the science is clear about the benefits to athleticism that brings.
Woman do produce testosterone, hence why the question is valid and why the discussion of these levels / advantages vs other natural benefits is worth having.
I agree it's not the same as mentally ill, second rate male athletes taking the piss, but we either make female sport sacrosanct, or we send a very disturbing signal to young women everywhere.
Ok, so what signal are we sending re CS? That despite being an athlete she can’t really compete as she’s too male for female and too female to stand a chance against men?
As I read it, Semenya is male. There are lots of males who are not competitive at elite level. Semenya is one of them.
This. Sometimes you just have to accept stuff is not going your way. In Semenya’s case it really is an outlier, sucks to be that one person but that’s the reality.
I reckon, even at my age I could dominate at girls under 10 rugby and in truth there are loads like me. But where is our voice?
Transgender debate, in sport, in general
