All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2
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@Victor-Meldrew as I said before the game, defensively he is one of the best and last night had some great moments there, but his decision making, or more decisiveness and slow pass affects the game we seem to be trying to play, and we already have a drop to most of our bench, he makes it seem larger imo.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
@Victor-Meldrew as I said before the game, defensively he is one of the best and last night had some great moments there, but his decision making, or more decisiveness and slow pass affects the game we seem to be trying to play, and we already have a drop to most of our bench, he makes it seem larger imo.
Yeah, can't fault the guys tenacity and endeavour. Just lacks the instinct and ability. Give him a tablespoon of Perenara's instinct and Ellis' skill and he'd be a fantastic halfback.
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@Crazy-Horse there's always one ...
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Negative nelly time because I am going to rain on the parade a bit. The first 20 minutes or so were exceptional, absolutely wonderful to watch. As someone posted above, they seemed razor focused. Most things worked for the AB's way, the Boks were poor and the ABs got the benefit of multiple penalties. The problem I have is that it is not humanly possible to play with that intensity and to have things go your way like that each week. It's hard enough doing it all game.
When the Abs play like they did at the start they are a sight to behold. But after that start they largely reverted to old. Once the Boks composed themselves and got their smothering defence going all the ABs could do was play a version of sevens, or put up the bomb. The team does not seem to know how, or have the ability, to do anything else.
Sure, the ABs got the win, and found a way back into the game after it looked like the Boks were going to steal the game, but the move that got the ABs the game in the end was the move that many of us on here hate - the BB cross kick. The bounce of the ball. Up until then we had buggar all.
As others pointed out the ABs need to find a way to gain territory when they are being bludgeoned and smothered. I am not sure playing sevens and putting up high kicks is the answer, because it requires too many things to go your way. It is too hard to execute consistently under the pressure of a rush defence and a World Cup knockout game.
@Crazy-Horse Mate most good tests are won in a dominant stage like the ABs had. It is very seldom I have seen a test between top teams where one team dominates whole game form start to finish. But perhaps I just to positive?
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Well that was a bloody good test!! ABs vs Boks are the beans !!
I purposely didn't read any match threads yesterday, I didn't want to read all the stuff why we would lose, so and so shouldn't be playing or in different position etc . so think I just sat there and loved it.
Anyway my take for what it's worth; Bloody great test, almost all ABs stood up and were counted!. Thought obviously Will Jordan had a blinder (but admit to always thinking he a right wing more yhan 15), RMo had a bloody good game at 10, and I thought rest of backs were bloody good. BB showed why they had him at 15 instead of WJ, he helps contro; game, and I pretty sure WJ was happy with a couple of kick passes etc he received etc. Forwards stood up against a pretty big pack, I said other day and say again, I like Taylor starting because he seems to scrum so well with Lomax and De Groot. Bloody SB and BR are causing problems for coaching staff, who do you leave out for Sam W, they were both bloody huge! Obviously Frizzell had a bloody good game, but noone I thought let side down .
Very happy AB supporter today! -
Negative nelly time because I am going to rain on the parade a bit. The first 20 minutes or so were exceptional, absolutely wonderful to watch. As someone posted above, they seemed razor focused. Most things worked for the AB's way, the Boks were poor and the ABs got the benefit of multiple penalties. The problem I have is that it is not humanly possible to play with that intensity and to have things go your way like that each week. It's hard enough doing it all game.
When the Abs play like they did at the start they are a sight to behold. But after that start they largely reverted to old. Once the Boks composed themselves and got their smothering defence going all the ABs could do was play a version of sevens, or put up the bomb. The team does not seem to know how, or have the ability, to do anything else.
Sure, the ABs got the win, and found a way back into the game after it looked like the Boks were going to steal the game, but the move that got the ABs the game in the end was the move that many of us on here hate - the BB cross kick. The bounce of the ball. Up until then we had buggar all.
As others pointed out the ABs need to find a way to gain territory when they are being bludgeoned and smothered. I am not sure playing sevens and putting up high kicks is the answer, because it requires too many things to go your way. It is too hard to execute consistently under the pressure of a rush defence and a World Cup knockout game.
@Crazy-Horse I see it differently. Probably seems silly, but fuck that seemed one of the most intense hakas I've seen, felt like Nugget was channeling Tana there, I was waiting for a back slap on Samisoni.
So onto the game and when was the last time you saw an Ab team start like that?
Something was done to give them a focus and intensity we haven't seen since McCaw. Of all teams, the big bad boks looked like the boogeyman had jumped out at them and they needed a nappy change.
The only problem I can see is they'll want revenge in France.
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Re the exits thing in general.
I reckon we saw one of the issues with RWC cycles here.
I reckon they were adopting a strategy for this game of utilising those up and unders inside their own territory.
I recall watching a match a year or more (and more) ago, and Rod Kafer talking about that tactic that England were using, to bomb it to about 40m out, get a chaser to jump into the catching zone to disrupt, and even knock the ball on. Worst case result: scrum to opposition. (Well, actual worst case is their possession). Was a good exit tactic.
Bokke did exactly this to us couple of years ago.
But what I mean about the World Cup cycle is I think we were seeing testing of a specific tactic. One that we can use on occasion.
Whilst it smacks of dry powder I think it's a thing.
Like 2011 where it was obvious different tactics were used in the tests before the RWC.
Another thing that they seemed to do a bit was the pick and go through the ruck: where dude looked to be a cleaner, then picks ball at his feet. Suspect tactic to drag the D in closer. Noticed it several times. Not something I've seen us do much of.
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@Crazy-Horse Mate most good tests are won in a dominant stage like the ABs had. It is very seldom I have seen a test between top teams where one team dominates whole game form start to finish. But perhaps I just to positive?
@Dan54 said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
@Crazy-Horse Mate most good tests are won in a dominant stage like the ABs had. It is very seldom I have seen a test between top teams where one team dominates whole game form start to finish. But perhaps I just to positive?
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the point I was trying to make. I wasn't looking for the ABs to dominate from start to finish, that is not possible to consistently do when playing the top teams. I wanted to see the ABs have something more than bombs and flinging the ball around sevens style once the Boks started to smother.
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@Crazy-Horse I see it differently. Probably seems silly, but fuck that seemed one of the most intense hakas I've seen, felt like Nugget was channeling Tana there, I was waiting for a back slap on Samisoni.
So onto the game and when was the last time you saw an Ab team start like that?
Something was done to give them a focus and intensity we haven't seen since McCaw. Of all teams, the big bad boks looked like the boogeyman had jumped out at them and they needed a nappy change.
The only problem I can see is they'll want revenge in France.
@Bones said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
@Crazy-Horse I see it differently. Probably seems silly, but fuck that seemed one of the most intense hakas I've seen, felt like Nugget was channeling Tana there, I was waiting for a back slap on Samisoni.
So onto the game and when was the last time you saw an Ab team start like that?
Something was done to give them a focus and intensity we haven't seen since McCaw. Of all teams, the big bad boks looked like the boogeyman had jumped out at them and they needed a nappy change.
The only problem I can see is they'll want revenge in France.
But it is not possible to be in that state consistently. The ABs need to find a way to win when not in that state. Do you really think the ABs can get in that state multiple times at the World Cup? Arguably the best AB team in recent memory ground out wins at the World Cup when they were not able to play their usual free flowing game. This team still hasn't shown they can do that.
We got away with it last night, but it's hard to imagine the Boks starting that poorly again.
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@Victor-Meldrew as I said before the game, defensively he is one of the best and last night had some great moments there, but his decision making, or more decisiveness and slow pass affects the game we seem to be trying to play, and we already have a drop to most of our bench, he makes it seem larger imo.
Def. agree on the drop at 9, but a lot happier in other positions apart from 6 and poss. 8. Heck even midfield looks OK with ALB back.
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My big worry is that we don’t have the depth of other contenders, especially in the pack and key positions like 9.
We really can’t afford to lose too many of our top players to injury, but of course, that is a lottery.
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
My big worry is that we don’t have the depth of other contenders, especially in the pack and key positions like 9.
We really can’t afford to lose too many of our top players to injury, but of course, that is a lottery.
I reckon we're probably OK in the pack. Guys who didn't play tonight...
Moody, Coles, Newell/Tuúngafasi, Whitelock, Lord, Ioane, Blackadder, Jacobsen.
Not all of those guys would be the first choice replacement and there will be a few who think Moody is yesterday's man, but he was going very well for the Crusaders before he got injured.
Halfback, the midfield and, maybe a bit strangely, fullback are the positions that concern me re. depth.
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So 2 questions:
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what does that Frizell performance mean for Scooter? Is he on the bench now? Or are we going to do the unthinkable and make a choice between BBBR and SW? I assume Scooter goes to the bench.
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what does the last 2 weeks mean for DMac? I suspect that in the selectors eyes, the collective performances of WJ and BB in particular will have them as incumbents to start at 14/15, and they might see WJ as 15 cover and BB as 10 cover. Clearly RM did enough to cement the starting 10 jumper both in general play and from the tee. Could be a 2-back bench with ALB and [insert a non-ginger HB here], or if we take a 3rd, could be a Narawa type (though probably Clarke knowing the reluctance to switch up). I’d love it to be Stevenson but that’s not happening. I’m any case, his chance of being in the 23 slipped a little last night I think.
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So 2 questions:
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what does that Frizell performance mean for Scooter? Is he on the bench now? Or are we going to do the unthinkable and make a choice between BBBR and SW? I assume Scooter goes to the bench.
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what does the last 2 weeks mean for DMac? I suspect that in the selectors eyes, the collective performances of WJ and BB in particular will have them as incumbents to start at 14/15, and they might see WJ as 15 cover and BB as 10 cover. Clearly RM did enough to cement the starting 10 jumper both in general play and from the tee. Could be a 2-back bench with ALB and [insert a non-ginger HB here], or if we take a 3rd, could be a Narawa type (though probably Clarke knowing the reluctance to switch up). I’d love it to be Stevenson but that’s not happening. I’m any case, his chance of being in the 23 slipped a little last night I think.
@voodoo said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
So 2 questions:
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what does that Frizell performance mean for Scooter? Is he on the bench now? Or are we going to do the unthinkable and make a choice between BBBR and SW? I assume Scooter goes to the bench.
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what does the last 2 weeks mean for DMac? I suspect that in the selectors eyes, the collective performances of WJ and BB in particular will have them as incumbents to start at 14/15, and they might see WJ as 15 cover and BB as 10 cover. Could be a 2-back bench with ALB and [insert a non-ginger HB here], or if we take a 3rd, could be a Narawa type (though probably Clarke knowing the reluctance to switch up). I’d love it to be Stevenson but that’s not happening. I’m any case, his chance of being in the 23 slipped a little last night I think.
While watching RM I was thinking about DM and wondering how he would be playing if it was him at 10 last night. Different opposition and all that, but there was quite a difference in how the backline operated last night compared to how they went against Argentina. I think I only noticed RI on Jordie's shoulder once last night, and that was in the second half. Whereas it was a regular thing against the Argies. Also it seemed DM was the first receiver more often than RM was last night where BB, and to a lesser extent JB, did that job a fair bit.
A result of different opposition or different playing styles of the 10s? Probably a mixture of both.
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@Bones said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
@Crazy-Horse I see it differently. Probably seems silly, but fuck that seemed one of the most intense hakas I've seen, felt like Nugget was channeling Tana there, I was waiting for a back slap on Samisoni.
So onto the game and when was the last time you saw an Ab team start like that?
Something was done to give them a focus and intensity we haven't seen since McCaw. Of all teams, the big bad boks looked like the boogeyman had jumped out at them and they needed a nappy change.
The only problem I can see is they'll want revenge in France.
But it is not possible to be in that state consistently. The ABs need to find a way to win when not in that state. Do you really think the ABs can get in that state multiple times at the World Cup? Arguably the best AB team in recent memory ground out wins at the World Cup when they were not able to play their usual free flowing game. This team still hasn't shown they can do that.
We got away with it last night, but it's hard to imagine the Boks starting that poorly again.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
But it is not possible to be in that state consistently.
Why not? We were used to that ten years ago.
Maybe the boks were poor, but that first 20 was the most focused and deliberate I've seen the ABs since 2019. Everyone had a purpose and was hitting their notes. I know we've become accustomed to fuck all. But maybe we can be a force again. -
So 2 questions:
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what does that Frizell performance mean for Scooter? Is he on the bench now? Or are we going to do the unthinkable and make a choice between BBBR and SW? I assume Scooter goes to the bench.
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what does the last 2 weeks mean for DMac? I suspect that in the selectors eyes, the collective performances of WJ and BB in particular will have them as incumbents to start at 14/15, and they might see WJ as 15 cover and BB as 10 cover. Clearly RM did enough to cement the starting 10 jumper both in general play and from the tee. Could be a 2-back bench with ALB and [insert a non-ginger HB here], or if we take a 3rd, could be a Narawa type (though probably Clarke knowing the reluctance to switch up). I’d love it to be Stevenson but that’s not happening. I’m any case, his chance of being in the 23 slipped a little last night I think.
@voodoo I wouldn't be too sure Frizell has locked down the 6 jersey just yet. I reckon we'll see Scooter at 6 in at least one of the tests vs Oz. Be pretty handy if Shannon could produce that first 20 minutes coming off the bench and an hour in.
We might see DMac start at 15 next game. If I were Fozzie, I'd rest Beauden and Smith in the first Oz test. Keep the other starting backs the same. Big Leicester and ALB (if available?) on the bench. I might start Roigard.
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@voodoo I wouldn't be too sure Frizell has locked down the 6 jersey just yet. I reckon we'll see Scooter at 6 in at least one of the tests vs Oz. Be pretty handy if Shannon could produce that first 20 minutes coming off the bench and an hour in.
We might see DMac start at 15 next game. If I were Fozzie, I'd rest Beauden and Smith in the first Oz test. Keep the other starting backs the same. Big Leicester and ALB (if available?) on the bench. I might start Roigard.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
Be pretty handy if Shannon could produce that first 20 minutes coming off the bench and an hour in.
Finau who
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
But it is not possible to be in that state consistently.
Why not? We were used to that ten years ago.
Maybe the boks were poor, but that first 20 was the most focused and deliberate I've seen the ABs since 2019. Everyone had a purpose and was hitting their notes. I know we've become accustomed to fuck all. But maybe we can be a force again.@Bones said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
But it is not possible to be in that state consistently.
Why not? We were used to that ten years ago.
Maybe the boks were poor, but that first 20 was the most focused and deliberate I've seen the ABs since 2019. Everyone had a purpose and was hitting their notes. I know we've become accustomed to fuck all. But maybe we can be a force again.Maybe my memory is poor, but I don't think we were always playing with that intensity even during the GOAT's reign as captain. Wasn't it around that time the idea that teams couldn't play three matches in a row with high intensity floated? The thing about GOAT's team is they were so bloody good they could still win when not playing their 'best'. Maybe no other team is dominant enough to win when not playing their best, but I think the way we play our best footy is too hard to replicate under intense pressure.
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@voodoo I wouldn't be too sure Frizell has locked down the 6 jersey just yet. I reckon we'll see Scooter at 6 in at least one of the tests vs Oz. Be pretty handy if Shannon could produce that first 20 minutes coming off the bench and an hour in.
We might see DMac start at 15 next game. If I were Fozzie, I'd rest Beauden and Smith in the first Oz test. Keep the other starting backs the same. Big Leicester and ALB (if available?) on the bench. I might start Roigard.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
@voodoo I wouldn't be too sure Frizell has locked down the 6 jersey just yet. I reckon we'll see Scooter at 6 in at least one of the tests vs Oz. Be pretty handy if Shannon could produce that first 20 minutes coming off the bench and an hour in.
We might see DMac start at 15 next game. If I were Fozzie, I'd rest Beauden and Smith in the first Oz test. Keep the other starting backs the same. Big Leicester and ALB (if available?) on the bench. I might start Roigard.
I should have been clearer, I wasn't referring to what might happen in the rest of the RC, I meant what our best 23 now looks like in the eyes of Foster and team.
I think Frizell did enough easily last night to entrench himself in the 6 jumper - while Scooter has been arguably our most consistent guy over the last 2 years, he really doesn't have that sort of performance in him, he's far more workmanlike at blindside.
I absolutely expect Scooter to get another few runs in the jumper though, against Oz, in Pool games etc. Same with D-Mac, it would be folly not to, given our experience with losing key guys at RWC's.
And yep @Bones , I'd also like to see Finau get a run for the same reason.
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@voodoo said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
So 2 questions:
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what does that Frizell performance mean for Scooter? Is he on the bench now? Or are we going to do the unthinkable and make a choice between BBBR and SW? I assume Scooter goes to the bench.
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what does the last 2 weeks mean for DMac? I suspect that in the selectors eyes, the collective performances of WJ and BB in particular will have them as incumbents to start at 14/15, and they might see WJ as 15 cover and BB as 10 cover. Could be a 2-back bench with ALB and [insert a non-ginger HB here], or if we take a 3rd, could be a Narawa type (though probably Clarke knowing the reluctance to switch up). I’d love it to be Stevenson but that’s not happening. I’m any case, his chance of being in the 23 slipped a little last night I think.
While watching RM I was thinking about DM and wondering how he would be playing if it was him at 10 last night. Different opposition and all that, but there was quite a difference in how the backline operated last night compared to how they went against Argentina. I think I only noticed RI on Jordie's shoulder once last night, and that was in the second half. Whereas it was a regular thing against the Argies. Also it seemed DM was the first receiver more often than RM was last night where BB, and to a lesser extent JB, did that job a fair bit.
A result of different opposition or different playing styles of the 10s? Probably a mixture of both.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
@voodoo said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
So 2 questions:
-
what does that Frizell performance mean for Scooter? Is he on the bench now? Or are we going to do the unthinkable and make a choice between BBBR and SW? I assume Scooter goes to the bench.
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what does the last 2 weeks mean for DMac? I suspect that in the selectors eyes, the collective performances of WJ and BB in particular will have them as incumbents to start at 14/15, and they might see WJ as 15 cover and BB as 10 cover. Could be a 2-back bench with ALB and [insert a non-ginger HB here], or if we take a 3rd, could be a Narawa type (though probably Clarke knowing the reluctance to switch up). I’d love it to be Stevenson but that’s not happening. I’m any case, his chance of being in the 23 slipped a little last night I think.
While watching RM I was thinking about DM and wondering how he would be playing if it was him at 10 last night. Different opposition and all that, but there was quite a difference in how the backline operated last night compared to how they went against Argentina. I think I only noticed RI on Jordie's shoulder once last night, and that was in the second half. Whereas it was a regular thing against the Argies. Also it seemed DM was the first receiver more often than RM was last night where BB, and to a lesser extent JB, did that job a fair bit.
A result of different opposition or different playing styles of the 10s? Probably a mixture of both.
I need to rewatch the test but the biggest thing I took from it is how dependent we are on Will Jordan being Will Jordan.
Last week the attack structure looked much different, we saw Mo’unga on the loop and at second receiver a lot more. As you say, different opposition which is why it is frustrating to not see Dmac have a few minutes out there.
I’m very pleased with the win, but I’m not convinced that our game drivers did enough to get that win. I need to rewatch it because it looks like we are effective when we can play straight in the forwards around the ruck to get go forward and take advantage of Smith’s passing.
On the contestables @Booboo I’ve seen the podcast with Hall etc explaining why they are effective and I understand multiple reasons to use them (including moving around the backfield). However, the timing of when to use them has to be a consideration and we have a need to use the long boot (using Jordie got shelved for some reason, powder on ice?).
In both halves we had the opportunity to try to get territory with three minutes left, and each time BB chose to put up a contestable. Each time we didn’t secure nor interrupt and gave up chances for or actual points. On a cost benefit ratio I cant see why that is the right tactic. Its the first question I’d like to ask the coaches.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
@voodoo said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
So 2 questions:
-
what does that Frizell performance mean for Scooter? Is he on the bench now? Or are we going to do the unthinkable and make a choice between BBBR and SW? I assume Scooter goes to the bench.
-
what does the last 2 weeks mean for DMac? I suspect that in the selectors eyes, the collective performances of WJ and BB in particular will have them as incumbents to start at 14/15, and they might see WJ as 15 cover and BB as 10 cover. Could be a 2-back bench with ALB and [insert a non-ginger HB here], or if we take a 3rd, could be a Narawa type (though probably Clarke knowing the reluctance to switch up). I’d love it to be Stevenson but that’s not happening. I’m any case, his chance of being in the 23 slipped a little last night I think.
While watching RM I was thinking about DM and wondering how he would be playing if it was him at 10 last night. Different opposition and all that, but there was quite a difference in how the backline operated last night compared to how they went against Argentina. I think I only noticed RI on Jordie's shoulder once last night, and that was in the second half. Whereas it was a regular thing against the Argies. Also it seemed DM was the first receiver more often than RM was last night where BB, and to a lesser extent JB, did that job a fair bit.
A result of different opposition or different playing styles of the 10s? Probably a mixture of both.
I need to rewatch the test but the biggest thing I took from it is how dependent we are on Will Jordan being Will Jordan.
Last week the attack structure looked much different, we saw Mo’unga on the loop and at second receiver a lot more. As you say, different opposition which is why it is frustrating to not see Dmac have a few minutes out there.
I’m very pleased with the win, but I’m not convinced that our game drivers did enough to get that win. I need to rewatch it because it looks like we are effective when we can play straight in the forwards around the ruck to get go forward and take advantage of Smith’s passing.
On the contestables @Booboo I’ve seen the podcast with Hall etc explaining why they are effective and I understand multiple reasons to use them (including moving around the backfield). However, the timing of when to use them has to be a consideration and we have a need to use the long boot (using Jordie got shelved for some reason, powder on ice?).
In both halves we had the opportunity to try to get territory with three minutes left, and each time BB chose to put up a contestable. Each time we didn’t secure nor interrupt and gave up chances for or actual points. On a cost benefit ratio I cant see why that is the right tactic. Its the first question I’d like to ask the coaches.
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@gt12 at least we are actually contesting the contestables now eh? For so long we were putting up those same short high kicks then barely even chasing them
️@voodoo said in All Blacks Vs Springboks RC Week 2:
@gt12 at least we are actually contesting the contestables now eh? For so long we were putting up those same short high kicks then barely even chasing them
️Did you notice though, when we were being smothered and pushed back, we were just that little bit less able to contest as well as we did earlier?
