All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II
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@No-Quarter sadly, winning the RWC will not undo the shite from the past 3 years under Fozzie or the shite we endured prior to that.
It is great if he was playing the very long game, but I'm not so sure, I think there has been a bit luck that forced his hand that sees us in a much better position than we have been for a few years at least.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
It is great if he was playing the very long game, but I'm not so sure, I think there has been a bit luck that forced his hand that sees us in a much better position than we have been for a few years at least.
i think this is unduly harsh.
Yes, there have been some very average performances. But it hasn't been as bad as some like to paint it.
But to put all change to luck isn't fair. There is no doubt that there have been lessons learned over the past 18 months. Certainly new assistants have helped, but there is a noticeable change in the way we play, and you cannot deny that there is definite growth in many individuals.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
It is great if he was playing the very long game, but I'm not so sure, I think there has been a bit luck that forced his hand that sees us in a much better position than we have been for a few years at least.
i think this is unduly harsh.
Yes, there have been some very average performances. But it hasn't been as bad as some like to paint it.
But to put all change to luck isn't fair. There is no doubt that there have been lessons learned over the past 18 months. Certainly new assistants have helped, but there is a noticeable change in the way we play, and you cannot deny that there is definite growth in many individuals.
@mariner4life well, the luck of the Irish forced the coaching changes (so yeah, luck wrong word there) but this helped with the forward play, while injury to Havili (unlucky for him) forced the positional switch of JB, alkong with some other injuries, so those have assisted with getting the peices of the puzzle to fit.
I mean what happened last year or so with the coaches was pretty unprecedented for the ABs, so I dont think you could put what happened into a plan that was ever divised by anyone, so yeah luck is the wrong word, but some decisions were made, that were not of Fosters doing or part of any plan.
I still maintain some of the play last year v the Irish was up there as some of the worst I have seen from the ABs, but that is just my opinion.
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In 2016 my afl team Richmond had a very disappointing season, after an intense review end of the year , the head coach kept his job , but they changed the assistants around him .
They also completely changed the game plan, they went on to win 3 of the next 4 premierships .
Now I’m not saying it’s the same and we are heading for the same success, but it is feeling a bit similar at this point in time.
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A combination of things...
We discovered due to the incumbents getting injured some good props (De Groot, Lomax, Newell) probably earlier than planned which has helped solidify our front row. Sam T was a good selection who has probably exceeded everyone's expectations.
SB has come of age in bulk, physicality and playing sense i.e. not giving away penalties all the time.
This means we now have a quality tight 5 instead of a "mobile tight 5" that at times showed great mobility going backwards against more experienced packs.
Frizell has finally found form adding balance to the loose forward trio that struggled for cohesion. Our forward pack is now pretty damn solid and physical to match.
RM and BB are playing much better than what I've seen in years, Dmac is putting good pressure on both of them to perform to maintain their spots, I think, at times a lack of pressure to maintain their spots added to some complacent play.
JB found his way into the midfield due to (again) the incumbents getting injured, thankfully he's never looked back, our midfield is finally adding some attack to the backline with now holding defenders in the midfield to counter their strong runs - which leaves space for the back 3.
Our wingers/FB have always been good, just haven't been given the space to work in.
So I would say some due to luck (front row and midfield) some due to persistence (RM, BB) and some due to coming of age (Frizzle, SB) cavet SB has always been good, this year he's bloody, bloody good.
And I think the changes to the coaching line-up have enabled the pack to be more physical the backline more fluid and as a whole the team having a more coherent game plan.
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I'm starting to wonder if we have been keeping our powder dry for the past couple of years
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
I'm starting to wonder if we have been keeping our powder dry for the past couple of years
Since 2019 perhaps? The Chiefs might argue for even earlier..
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@mariner4life well, the luck of the Irish forced the coaching changes (so yeah, luck wrong word there) but this helped with the forward play, while injury to Havili (unlucky for him) forced the positional switch of JB, alkong with some other injuries, so those have assisted with getting the peices of the puzzle to fit.
I mean what happened last year or so with the coaches was pretty unprecedented for the ABs, so I dont think you could put what happened into a plan that was ever divised by anyone, so yeah luck is the wrong word, but some decisions were made, that were not of Fosters doing or part of any plan.
I still maintain some of the play last year v the Irish was up there as some of the worst I have seen from the ABs, but that is just my opinion.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
@mariner4life well, the luck of the Irish forced the coaching changes (so yeah, luck wrong word there) but this helped with the forward play, while injury to Havili (unlucky for him) forced the positional switch of JB, alkong with some other injuries, so those have assisted with getting the peices of the puzzle to fit.
I mean what happened last year or so with the coaches was pretty unprecedented for the ABs, so I dont think you could put what happened into a plan that was ever divised by anyone, so yeah luck is the wrong word, but some decisions were made, that were not of Fosters doing or part of any plan.
I still maintain some of the play last year v the Irish was up there as some of the worst I have seen from the ABs, but that is just my opinion.
There was some God awful dross in the first half of that French game as well. I guess Foster can be given credit for not going all bottom lip and being open to changes etc. At the same time he didn't really have a choice.
One thing I will say is that it speaks volumes that the players weren't willing to throw him under the bus. He's clearly well-liked despite the fůck ups.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
It is great if he was playing the very long game, but I'm not so sure, I think there has been a bit luck that forced his hand that sees us in a much better position than we have been for a few years at least.
i think this is unduly harsh.
Yes, there have been some very average performances. But it hasn't been as bad as some like to paint it.
But to put all change to luck isn't fair. There is no doubt that there have been lessons learned over the past 18 months. Certainly new assistants have helped, but there is a noticeable change in the way we play, and you cannot deny that there is definite growth in many individuals.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
But to put all change to luck isn't fair. There is no doubt that there have been lessons learned over the past 18 months. Certainly new assistants have helped, but there is a noticeable change in the way we play, and you cannot deny that there is definite growth in many individuals.
lol, he said "bit of luck" and you have re-written his comments and to mean it was all just luck?
While I would also agree and say there has been a significant amount of soul searching and learnings taken from the last 18 months. Changing of other coaching staff having a significant impact as well.
Has there been an improvement in 2023?, significantly and from a couple of players in particular and credit has to be given, shit even i concede I was not expecting the growth from a few players.
Injuries forced them into trying some new selections (they admit to that), that they were not initially willing to try. Luck? Fate? Is doesn't really matter, we will never know. Outcomes did show us though, that by making those choices, better players succeeded in those new positions.
But to change the whole narrative by suggesting that @taniwharugby believes everything that was successful was based purely off chance... is as you put it is also unduly harsh.
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Foster and co seem to set great store on looking at people in camp as well as on the field (e.g Shaun Stevenson) so it's possible they've already looked at Roigard and decided he's their man to finish a game and Christie needs to prove he can start.
Nobody knows, but if Christie doesn't step up, it's poss. we could end up with a AS/BW/CR trio.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
Foster and co seem to set great store on looking at people in camp as well as on the field (e.g Shaun Stevenson) so it's possible they've already looked at Roigard and decided he's their man to finish a game and Christie needs to prove he can start.
Nobody knows, but if Christie doesn't step up, it's poss. we could end up with a AS/BW/CR trio.
You're right about no-one knowing for sure, but Christie has pretty clearly been number 2 for the past 18 months - even if his hold on that position has been a bit shaky. It would be pretty odd if they dump him now. If there was any real thought of that, surely they would have given Roigard more time.
I reckon they're going to trust to luck that neither Smith nor Christie gets injured, but if they do, they can either bring in Weber or trust Roigard. There will be time before the RWC knockout matches to give Cam game time, in case he happens to be needed.
It's a pretty long bow, but when the ABs have played anyone other than Wales or minnows with Brad in the team, we've got a pretty poor record - but, along with selection patterns, it seems they don't think he's what they need.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
Foster and co seem to set great store on looking at people in camp as well as on the field (e.g Shaun Stevenson) so it's possible they've already looked at Roigard and decided he's their man to finish a game and Christie needs to prove he can start.
Nobody knows, but if Christie doesn't step up, it's poss. we could end up with a AS/BW/CR trio.
You're right about no-one knowing for sure, but Christie has pretty clearly been number 2 for the past 18 months - even if his hold on that position has been a bit shaky. It would be pretty odd if they dump him now. If there was any real thought of that, surely they would have given Roigard more time.
I reckon they're going to trust to luck that neither Smith nor Christie gets injured, but if they do, they can either bring in Weber or trust Roigard. There will be time before the RWC knockout matches to give Cam game time, in case he happens to be needed.
It's a pretty long bow, but when the ABs have played anyone other than Wales or minnows with Brad in the team, we've got a pretty poor record - but, along with selection patterns, it seems they don't think he's what they need.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
Foster and co seem to set great store on looking at people in camp as well as on the field (e.g Shaun Stevenson) so it's possible they've already looked at Roigard and decided he's their man to finish a game and Christie needs to prove he can start.
Nobody knows, but if Christie doesn't step up, it's poss. we could end up with a AS/BW/CR trio.
You're right about no-one knowing for sure, but Christie has pretty clearly been number 2 for the past 18 months - even if his hold on that position has been a bit shaky. It would be pretty odd if they dump him now. If there was any real thought of that, surely they would have given Roigard more time.
I reckon they're going to trust to luck that neither Smith nor Christie gets injured, but if they do, they can either bring in Weber or trust Roigard. There will be time before the RWC knockout matches to give Cam game time, in case he happens to be needed.
It's a pretty long bow, but when the ABs have played anyone other than Wales or minnows with Brad in the team, we've got a pretty poor record - but, along with selection patterns, it seems they don't think he's what they need.
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@Chris-B the simple fact is, i don't reckon we can win the World Cup with any other halfback that isn't Smith, so who goes as 2 and 3 really doesn't matter.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
@Chris-B the simple fact is, i don't reckon we can win the World Cup with any other halfback that isn't Smith, so who goes as 2 and 3 really doesn't matter.
in every practical aspect i agree
on paper we COULD win with other halfbacks...but we'd have to change how we played to compliment a different halfback rather than just putting someone else in there and expecting them to be as good as smith....but we wont/cant do that
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
@Chris-B the simple fact is, i don't reckon we can win the World Cup with any other halfback that isn't Smith, so who goes as 2 and 3 really doesn't matter.
in every practical aspect i agree
on paper we COULD win with other halfbacks...but we'd have to change how we played to compliment a different halfback rather than just putting someone else in there and expecting them to be as good as smith....but we wont/cant do that
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
@Chris-B the simple fact is, i don't reckon we can win the World Cup with any other halfback that isn't Smith, so who goes as 2 and 3 really doesn't matter.
in every practical aspect i agree
on paper we COULD win with other halfbacks...but we'd have to change how we played to compliment a different halfback rather than just putting someone else in there and expecting them to be as good as smith....but we wont/cant do that
in fairness, not many teams can. Key players are key players for a reason.
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I'm starting to wonder if we have been keeping our powder dry for the past couple of years
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
I'm starting to wonder if we have been keeping our powder dry for the past couple of years
In that case it was desiccated before hand, placed in a dehumidifier and stored on the Atacama Desert considering the losses to Argentina and Ireland.
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look, this place is real boring at the moment. if i can't put words in a guys mouth and then argue that, then what else am i going to do. work?
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
look, this place is real boring at the moment. if i can't put words in a guys mouth and then argue that, then what else am i going to do. work?
You could always try to write some insightful analysis, or ask Tim why he can believes Dalton is always better in the team than Sam.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
look, this place is real boring at the moment. if i can't put words in a guys mouth and then argue that, then what else am i going to do. work?
You could always try to write some insightful analysis, or ask Tim why he can believes Dalton is always better in the team than Sam.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
look, this place is real boring at the moment. if i can't put words in a guys mouth and then argue that, then what else am i going to do. work?
You could always try to write some insightful analysis, or ask Tim why he can believes Dalton is always better in the team than Sam.
when i watch rugby i am too drunk for the first, and not drunk enough for the 2nd
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
@Chris-B the simple fact is, i don't reckon we can win the World Cup with any other halfback that isn't Smith, so who goes as 2 and 3 really doesn't matter.
in every practical aspect i agree
on paper we COULD win with other halfbacks...but we'd have to change how we played to compliment a different halfback rather than just putting someone else in there and expecting them to be as good as smith....but we wont/cant do that
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Australia - Bledisloe II:
@Chris-B the simple fact is, i don't reckon we can win the World Cup with any other halfback that isn't Smith, so who goes as 2 and 3 really doesn't matter.
in every practical aspect i agree
on paper we COULD win with other halfbacks...but we'd have to change how we played to compliment a different halfback rather than just putting someone else in there and expecting them to be as good as smith....but we wont/cant do that
Yeh I'm not sure he is 100% vintage Smith and still a bit up and down, and Roigard is fairly similar in how he would fit with the team but has more snipe factor so I wonder if there really is daylight now.
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Losing to Argentina, not once but twice was one of the lowest points in ABs history. That is Foster's legacy. He then had two new coaches forced on him by NZR, at least he chose those well. He had our starting props, and starting 12 forced on him through injury - along with others. So luck or, more accurately, circumstances beyond his control have put him in this position. However, everyone in the media is bigging up the 10-game undefeated run. That's not a winning run. And there were some shit games in there, and lucky scrape wins. Foster is riding his luck, and I hope it holds until he wins the RWC. But even if he does, his legacy is one good year, 3 years of utter tripe - not good enough for more
