RWC Week 1: France v All Blacks
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I don't get the fixation on comparing heights and weights and saying players are the same because their stats are close. Weight matters to some degree sure, but there are plenty of heavy blokes who don't hit hard or bend the line the way they should. Read probably punched above his weight there, he was always great for lining up one massive hit every game that folded someone, and we've all seen his strength with ball in hand, particularly the way he could free his arms in the tackle.
There is so much more than weight involved, it's timing, effort, leg drive, reading the game to be in the right place, ability to make split-second adjustments to height/line to maximise impact (in both tackling and carting it).
The same goes with height, not all 1:90m blokes are made equal when it comes to lineout ability, both attacking and defending.
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@Darren said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Oh hell no
But everyone was having a bad day, nice to bring on someone to turn the game around a bit. Just don't think Christie does that. He is not going to add a spark that might make a difference.
I'm just not liking the makeup of this team, and the squad in general just seems to be selected badly.That was a great little confidence boost for Roigard, by far the best thing to come of that warm up match. But the game was gone, and it was a warm up match, so there was no pressure on him at all. Against the French at home in a WC opener? Yeah that's a different kettle of fish and I can see why they wouldn't want to expose him to that this early in his career. Some pool games for him to make his case and get more comfortable in the black jumper, and he's every chance of making the bench in the quarter.
@No-Quarter said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Some pool games for him to make his case and get more comfortable in the black jumper, and he's every chance of making the bench in the quarter.
When you see a player who is obviously a gun, you play him as often as possible behind the incumbent. Foster had the chance to use him against Argentina (didn't), gave him 20 minutes against Oz, didn't play him against the Boks, and then in our easiest game, chose Christie to start against Oz in Dunedin (which was an unmitigated disaster) with Smith on the bench. Then he plays as a sub against the Boks, and scores in one of the great individual efforts since God knows how long.
He's a better passer, better kicker, better runner and bigger than Christie, but Foster can now use the excuse he doesn't have enough big game experience.
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I don't get the fixation on comparing heights and weights and saying players are the same because their stats are close. Weight matters to some degree sure, but there are plenty of heavy blokes who don't hit hard or bend the line the way they should. Read probably punched above his weight there, he was always great for lining up one massive hit every game that folded someone, and we've all seen his strength with ball in hand, particularly the way he could free his arms in the tackle.
There is so much more than weight involved, it's timing, effort, leg drive, reading the game to be in the right place, ability to make split-second adjustments to height/line to maximise impact (in both tackling and carting it).
The same goes with height, not all 1:90m blokes are made equal when it comes to lineout ability, both attacking and defending.
Don't disagree with any of that. But if you are talking about size you are talking about size. To say size and then pivot to style is a different conversation. I was responding to a specific comment about the size of the trio
I would also add it's silly to compare a guy at the start of his international career to a 100+ Test All Black
Papali'i is a decent lineout option. He also has a good running game but he's not usually the primary runner in trio's he plays for. He's actually particularly strong in the tramlines just like Read was
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Both 1.93m, Read 111kg, Dalton 113kg
Sure the stats fluctuate.. but at the very least they are similar.
Papali'i is very large openside who started his SR career as a specialist 6
@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Both 1.93m, Read 111kg, Dalton 113kg
Sure the stats fluctuate.. but at the very least they are similar.
Papali'i is very large openside who started his SR career as a specialist 6
Yeah the size discussion with Paps seems very odd. Especially when people are advocating for Jacobson in his place who IIRC is smaller.
I also can remember when Paps started playing openside more often, there were lots of comments suggesting he was a natural 6 not 7 and was too heavy footed for 7.
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I don't get the fixation on comparing heights and weights and saying players are the same because their stats are close. Weight matters to some degree sure, but there are plenty of heavy blokes who don't hit hard or bend the line the way they should. Read probably punched above his weight there, he was always great for lining up one massive hit every game that folded someone, and we've all seen his strength with ball in hand, particularly the way he could free his arms in the tackle.
There is so much more than weight involved, it's timing, effort, leg drive, reading the game to be in the right place, ability to make split-second adjustments to height/line to maximise impact (in both tackling and carting it).
The same goes with height, not all 1:90m blokes are made equal when it comes to lineout ability, both attacking and defending.
@voodoo said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
...... there are plenty of heavy blokes who don't hit hard or bend the line the way they should.
Jaime Mcintosh has entered the chat
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@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Both 1.93m, Read 111kg, Dalton 113kg
Sure the stats fluctuate.. but at the very least they are similar.
Papali'i is very large openside who started his SR career as a specialist 6
thats so frustrating when the AB's have been in such obvious need of a top 6, and it was clear no one was moving cane from 7, why havent we been working on Paps as a 6 for the last few years? and i dont mean just in passing
@Kiwiwomble they did gave him a game v ireland he failed
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@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Both 1.93m, Read 111kg, Dalton 113kg
Sure the stats fluctuate.. but at the very least they are similar.
Papali'i is very large openside who started his SR career as a specialist 6
Yeah the size discussion with Paps seems very odd. Especially when people are advocating for Jacobson in his place who IIRC is smaller.
I also can remember when Paps started playing openside more often, there were lots of comments suggesting he was a natural 6 not 7 and was too heavy footed for 7.
@Nepia said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Both 1.93m, Read 111kg, Dalton 113kg
Sure the stats fluctuate.. but at the very least they are similar.
Papali'i is very large openside who started his SR career as a specialist 6
Yeah the size discussion with Paps seems very odd. Especially when people are advocating for Jacobson in his place who IIRC is smaller.
I also can remember when Paps started playing openside more often, there were lots of comments suggesting he was a natural 6 not 7 and was too heavy footed for 7.
I couldn't really care less about his actual size. Nepo Laulala is plenty heavy but having him at 6 would be crap, likewise Dom Bird.
The point is that with Savea and Cane locked in, you need someone powerful, who can run and bend the line, and win lineouts against Courtney Lawes etc. That's not Dalton, or Jacobsen. It was Read. -
@Nepia said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Both 1.93m, Read 111kg, Dalton 113kg
Sure the stats fluctuate.. but at the very least they are similar.
Papali'i is very large openside who started his SR career as a specialist 6
Yeah the size discussion with Paps seems very odd. Especially when people are advocating for Jacobson in his place who IIRC is smaller.
I also can remember when Paps started playing openside more often, there were lots of comments suggesting he was a natural 6 not 7 and was too heavy footed for 7.
I couldn't really care less about his actual size. Nepo Laulala is plenty heavy but having him at 6 would be crap, likewise Dom Bird.
The point is that with Savea and Cane locked in, you need someone powerful, who can run and bend the line, and win lineouts against Courtney Lawes etc. That's not Dalton, or Jacobsen. It was Read.@reprobate said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
I couldn't really care less about his actual size.
But you keep commenting on it
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@Kiwiwomble they did gave him a game v ireland he failed
@ploughboy said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
they did gave him a game v ireland he failed
Yeah I mentioned earlier he didn't play well in his only AB start at 6. He needs to be better than that.
Players can have bad games and come back better. Also it is possible that his form was off as he just returned from having his appendix removed
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@ploughboy said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
they did gave him a game v ireland he failed
Yeah I mentioned earlier he didn't play well in his only AB start at 6. He needs to be better than that.
Players can have bad games and come back better. Also it is possible that his form was off as he just returned from having his appendix removed
@Duluth and pretty much everyone was shit across the Irish tests.
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@Kiwiwomble they did gave him a game v ireland he failed
@ploughboy said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble they did gave him a game v ireland he failed
So what, it was one game, Frizzell had multiple failures before his one big game this year and he's now Tongan Jesus.
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@Kiwiwomble they did gave him a game v ireland he failed
@ploughboy said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Kiwiwomble they did gave him a game v ireland he failed
one game...yes, thats the same as spending a couple of years building a player into what they need
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@Duluth and pretty much everyone was shit across the Irish tests.
@taniwharugby Samisoni wasn't, but Foster dropped him for the decider.
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@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Both 1.93m, Read 111kg, Dalton 113kg
Sure the stats fluctuate.. but at the very least they are similar.
Papali'i is very large openside who started his SR career as a specialist 6
Yeah the size discussion with Paps seems very odd. Especially when people are advocating for Jacobson in his place who IIRC is smaller.
I also can remember when Paps started playing openside more often, there were lots of comments suggesting he was a natural 6 not 7 and was too heavy footed for 7.
@Nepia said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Especially when people are advocating for Jacobson in his place who IIRC is smaller.
Also I think there's two different questions. If the AB's were free to pick anyone I would not go for Papali'i in this test.
However they are restricted by their squad
I like plenty of others, have issues with the squad selection. But its done
Within this squad the choice was really LJ v DP as Barrett was needed in the second row. Even if you prefer LJ it's hardly a shocker to go for the larger guy
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@reprobate said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
I couldn't really care less about his actual size.
But you keep commenting on it
@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@reprobate said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
I couldn't really care less about his actual size.
But you keep commenting on it
not really. i initially said this "looks a lot smaller, plays much smaller, and a completely different player. Read was a genuine power runner, and a world class lineout option. Dalton, Ardie and Cane are all 7s. Read was an 8 who could have been a decent 6 or even a decent lock."
you're arguing that he's actually not smaller, based on notoriously unreliable rugby stats. that's 4 words commenting on actual size, vs the rest of the paragraph. -
@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@reprobate said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
I couldn't really care less about his actual size.
But you keep commenting on it
not really. i initially said this "looks a lot smaller, plays much smaller, and a completely different player. Read was a genuine power runner, and a world class lineout option. Dalton, Ardie and Cane are all 7s. Read was an 8 who could have been a decent 6 or even a decent lock."
you're arguing that he's actually not smaller, based on notoriously unreliable rugby stats. that's 4 words commenting on actual size, vs the rest of the paragraph.There you go again
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Don't disagree with any of that. But if you are talking about size you are talking about size. To say size and then pivot to style is a different conversation. I was responding to a specific comment about the size of the trio
I would also add it's silly to compare a guy at the start of his international career to a 100+ Test All Black
Papali'i is a decent lineout option. He also has a good running game but he's not usually the primary runner in trio's he plays for. He's actually particularly strong in the tramlines just like Read was
@Duluth Except in my post I focused on style - added one point about size (which I imagine would be a fairly well understood point in that a good big man will always beat a good small man) which you then latched onto and made a fuss of.
It's all pointless anyway - there's no way at the opening game of the RWC Dalton should be starting at blindside flanker regardless if he's 100kg, 110kg or 150kg...
It's a farce in player selection and development that he's even been asked to do the job.
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@Nepia said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Especially when people are advocating for Jacobson in his place who IIRC is smaller.
Also I think there's two different questions. If the AB's were free to pick anyone I would not go for Papali'i in this test.
However they are restricted by their squad
I like plenty of others, have issues with the squad selection. But its done
Within this squad the choice was really LJ v DP as Barrett was needed in the second row. Even if you prefer LJ it's hardly a shocker to go for the larger guy
@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Nepia said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Especially when people are advocating for Jacobson in his place who IIRC is smaller.
Also I think there's two different questions. If the AB's were free to pick anyone I would not go for Papali'i in this test.
However they are restricted by their squad
I like plenty of others, have issues with the squad selection. But its done
Within this squad the choice was really LJ v DP as Barrett was needed in the second row. Even if you prefer LJ it's hardly a shocker to go for the larger guy
I'll ask this question then. If Papalii is viewed as a better blindside then Jacobson, why didn't get a start last week, when he hasn't played that much test footy, especially at 6.
And furthermore, if Jacobson is seen as a specialist backup number eight, was he the best option if we were only going to take four locks and five loose forwards?
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Random thoughts..
Samisoni Is possibly out most dominant ball carrier. He should have been given every opportunity to get back into form.
I do love Coles and Taylor but neither can really hit it up in the tight.
So hard to believe we are all sweating on Shannon F to be fit when so many of us laughed at his selection awhile back.
And hard to believe Dalton and Reid the same size. Is it the quick evolution of the game of just the way they play?
Any word on who is getting called up? Don’t see how we can look past Samipeni Finau with the state of the team now. -
There you go again
@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
There you go again
ah, you're a last word guy. good luck to ya.
