Aussie Pro Rugby
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I always found the deflection of reponsibilty was a thing that infuriated me when I was really involved in rugby in Australia, and still happens, the it's not our fault, NRL, AFL are stronger games. NZR should be giving us more help ,it's Qld's, Tahs/North Sydney etc etc running the game, or everyones against us. While every thing has a smidgen in it, they get used as an excuse to bloody much .
One great example I always think , I was a member of Reds for a few years, and remember clearly in 2006 Reds were not very good at all, and almost every game I attended thepeople/supporters around me would be saying out loud , this is crap, I not watching these fellas anymore (and anyone who sat just to left of players tunnel right at front cwould be able to attest to fact.
Anyway begiining of next season I was at a luncheon at Ballymore with mates (Grant Fox was speaker) and he was asked what he thought of the idea of ABs getting a few games off that season (07 WC year) the man from Reds (a very good passionate Reds man) stood and said how upset he was as it was so hard to get crowds to rugby etc and NZR were letting them down.
I stood up in questions and asked why he felt an AB or 2 was hurting the crowds and I quoted what I was hearing at Suncorp every week about the Reds being useless etc. He didn't answer and a few of the lunch crowd kind of gave me shit for saying it, (Foxy actually asked them to shush up etc), I told him not to bother, because any of them who were actual rugby supporters knew what I was saying was true. Actuall Foxy came and had a beer with me and mates (all Reds long time Reds supporters) upstairs and sia I had hit nail on head (perhaps he would of put it a little differently/diplomatically) and was a little surprised thatReds board didn't see what was in front of them. But as I said I knew before then, but that to me was a massive statement what one of huge problems was and still is Australian rugby.
It's not us, it's everyone else's fault!@Dan54 i think i can see a variation on what your saying in lots of facets, stuff just gets put in the "too hard basket", we're never going to get big crowds or large memberships, never going to attract big sponsors....so why bother....let just accept things for what they currently are
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@Dan54 i think i can see a variation on what your saying in lots of facets, stuff just gets put in the "too hard basket", we're never going to get big crowds or large memberships, never going to attract big sponsors....so why bother....let just accept things for what they currently are
@Kiwiwomble When I was first in Aus and on club committee (and coaching etc) I suggested we try and do a some kind of promotion at local schools even put up signs etc around them and in shopping centres, and got told, naa none takes notice because League is the big sport around Qld (Lions had just come on AFL scene). I was somewhat gobsmacked! We did get that changed a bit after a few years, where the attitude was lay down and get walked over.
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@Kiwiwomble When I was first in Aus and on club committee (and coaching etc) I suggested we try and do a some kind of promotion at local schools even put up signs etc around them and in shopping centres, and got told, naa none takes notice because League is the big sport around Qld (Lions had just come on AFL scene). I was somewhat gobsmacked! We did get that changed a bit after a few years, where the attitude was lay down and get walked over.
@Dan54 said in Aussie Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble When I was first in Aus and on club committee (and coaching etc) I suggested we try and do a some kind of promotion at local schools even put up signs etc around them and in shopping centres, and got told, naa none takes notice because League is the big sport around Qld (Lions had just come on AFL scene). I was somewhat gobsmacked! We did get that changed a bit after a few years, where the attitude was lay down and get walked over.
AFL is a great example. It barely had a footprint in Qld and NSW. It was a joke. Aerial ping pong and gay shorts. Now look at it.
I recall years ago signing my son up to a Reds afterschool programme. The time? 3pm, i.e the exact time school finishes. Even being close by you're lucky to get there in 15min. The whole thing was also a complete joke. Couple of months later AFL comes along. Hands out a heap of free shit and signs up a tonne of kids. And this is a game that didn't even exist here not that long ago.
It's still amateur hour here despite them getting paid now.
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I'm not qualified to talk about the Australian situation but I do think the negativity around the prospects for the NZ gme are OTT.
We've been here before, most notably after the 81 Bok tour but also to a lesser extent from 98-04. The shy didn't actually fall on our heads then and I don't think it is going to now either.
I don't see any real drop off in support for ruby. In the main centres club rugby was always pretty niche. A lot of rural clubs are struggling but where they remain, they still seem to be a focal point for their communities.
How we support rugby has changed. People don't go to games any more. They're too expensive, on at the wrong time and you can easily watch them on line or TV. Still see a lot of Super Rugby jerseys being worn though.
Other sports have definitely made inroads. League basketball and soccer particularly. All do have a more tribal element and have done their marketing much better. But in the main they grabbed their support through TV. Not many Kiwi's in the stands at a Lakers game but still see their (hideous) team colours all around Auckland.
there's a shitload more ways to entertain yourself than even a decade ago. Rugby really had a captive audience for generations and hasn't vcoped well withy the challenges, but I would be worried if I didn't see kids in AB jerseys etc and that's not the case. We just need to have some success. We are definitely more discriminatory, less dedicated in bad times, but we only have to look back 12 months to the WRWC to see how the country wants to follow a successful team.
Rugby is still the #1 sport in NZ and will remain so for the foreseeable. It hasn't got the field to itself any more but it's not dying.
I do accept the issues around the Super rugby comp. I've said before I don't think it is preparing our athletes for test rugby. It does need a fresh think but changing it all the time is what has helped undermine it. Particularly in Oz. The success of the Crusaders has been bad for the comp too. People lose interest if they think the results are predetermined. However, it's not that long ago that we were proclaiming how the NH got it wrong concentrating on club rugby and how NZ with central contracts and the franchise model was the way to go.
Certainly Wales and Ireland adopted some of that. The truth is somewhere in the middle I think.
NZ is just collectively losing its shit because we are not lording it over everyone else. Oz similarly but with less reason to think they had a preordained right to dimne at the top table.
England have a club scene and its a shambles from what I observe. France, Sth Africa, Wales all had periods in the doldrums not all that long ago. Ireland's time in the sun will end.
We just need some perspective. Over-performing in the next 6 weeks would help too.
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yeah, thik he was pretty hard done by....he seemed to have an actual long term game plan that was obviously going to take longer than this world cup cycle....and they dump him for eddie originally for the smash and grab....which i can...kind of understand, want to build some hype before the next world cup etc....but then he picks a young squad and starts talking about the future.....
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I'm not qualified to talk about the Australian situation but I do think the negativity around the prospects for the NZ gme are OTT.
We've been here before, most notably after the 81 Bok tour but also to a lesser extent from 98-04. The shy didn't actually fall on our heads then and I don't think it is going to now either.
I don't see any real drop off in support for ruby. In the main centres club rugby was always pretty niche. A lot of rural clubs are struggling but where they remain, they still seem to be a focal point for their communities.
How we support rugby has changed. People don't go to games any more. They're too expensive, on at the wrong time and you can easily watch them on line or TV. Still see a lot of Super Rugby jerseys being worn though.
Other sports have definitely made inroads. League basketball and soccer particularly. All do have a more tribal element and have done their marketing much better. But in the main they grabbed their support through TV. Not many Kiwi's in the stands at a Lakers game but still see their (hideous) team colours all around Auckland.
there's a shitload more ways to entertain yourself than even a decade ago. Rugby really had a captive audience for generations and hasn't vcoped well withy the challenges, but I would be worried if I didn't see kids in AB jerseys etc and that's not the case. We just need to have some success. We are definitely more discriminatory, less dedicated in bad times, but we only have to look back 12 months to the WRWC to see how the country wants to follow a successful team.
Rugby is still the #1 sport in NZ and will remain so for the foreseeable. It hasn't got the field to itself any more but it's not dying.
I do accept the issues around the Super rugby comp. I've said before I don't think it is preparing our athletes for test rugby. It does need a fresh think but changing it all the time is what has helped undermine it. Particularly in Oz. The success of the Crusaders has been bad for the comp too. People lose interest if they think the results are predetermined. However, it's not that long ago that we were proclaiming how the NH got it wrong concentrating on club rugby and how NZ with central contracts and the franchise model was the way to go.
Certainly Wales and Ireland adopted some of that. The truth is somewhere in the middle I think.
NZ is just collectively losing its shit because we are not lording it over everyone else. Oz similarly but with less reason to think they had a preordained right to dimne at the top table.
England have a club scene and its a shambles from what I observe. France, Sth Africa, Wales all had periods in the doldrums not all that long ago. Ireland's time in the sun will end.
We just need some perspective. Over-performing in the next 6 weeks would help too.
Some good points.
I think there's a risk of over-obesseing about Super Rugby's ability to prepare players for international rugby. I'm not saying it's not important, you do want and need it to be a really good step up (as well as an entertaining and healthy comp in its own right). But as the cliche goes, perfection is the enemy of good.
The club / province / regional systems in place in England, France, Ireland & Wales are far from perfect. Very very far in some cases, the Welsh regional system is an absolute basket case, the English league is a money pit, the workload in the French system would put a Soviet labour camp to shame. But somehow, the NH sometimes produce decent national teams.
Absolutely not suggesting that Aus / NZ should follow any of the NH models, just pointing out that the competition below national level is only one of many factors
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Does anyone have access to the paywalled Financial Review article about Kim Jong McLellan? I read it via a mate, but was thinking it might be a perfect representation of Oz rugby that it has a substantive article in the AFR. (They may discuss the other Oz sports frequently though, I don't know as I don't normally read it).
Anyway, I didn't know he was also Chair of a News Limited owned company. Seems to be a bit of a conflict of interest that the Chair of an organisation with a broadcast deal with Stan/9 is also Chair of a company owned by their competitor.
@Nepia this one?
https://www.afr.com/rear-window/hamish-mclennan-and-rugby-s-schoolboy-errors-20230925-p5e7ee
Hamish McLennan and rugby’s schoolboy errors
The Wallabies slumped to a historic World Cup loss. It’s high time for scrutiny of rugby’s administrators, chief among them, chairman Hamish McLennan.The Wallabies’ descent into national embarrassment territory on Monday morning means the knives are out for coach Eddie Jones, the moody gremlin of global sport.
Australia had their arses handed to them by Wales, inflicting the country’s largest loss in World Cup history. Or in the traditional Welsh: “ffwrch!”
Jones rightly remains the focal point of ire. But scrutiny must show up at the doorstop of Rugby Australia and its cast of administrators.
Rugby Australia CEO Phil Waugh and chairman Hamish McLennan at Allianz Stadium. James Brickwood
What, then, of the performance of Rugby Australia chairman Hamish McLennan? The Hammer’s blue-sky idea was to pilfer Jones. McLennan can’t be blamed for the veteran coach’s baffling selection decisions. He can cop it for signing a clearly past-it coach to a five-year contract on the eve of a World Cup.
You can imagine how it went down. Eddie comes around for dinner at the new Darling Point digs. A few chablis in, Hammer says he should come home. Save the Wallabies. He accepts on one condition, scanning around the $30 million trophy home: “Five years.”
Hammer has his guy! Lock it in, Eddie.
McLennan is a product of corporate Australia’s fail-up culture. After being part of the calamity at Channel Ten on behalf of Lachlan Murdoch, McLennan’s stunning career has soared. He now chairs not only Rugby Australia but occupies the top board seat at News Corp’s REA, media company ARN Media, and serves as deputy chairman at the little shop of horrors, Magellan Financial.
Three chairmanships. The Hammer is the east coast Richard Goyder. The very existence of the McLennans and Goyders – spread obviously too thin to actually provide adequate scrutiny for shareholders – proves the professional director class is taking the piss.
Set aside the Eddie shambles, McLennan’s rugby turnaround narrative hinges on Project Aurora, which proposes hawking off a slice of the sport to investors and private equity. That was supposed to raise $250 million. Jefferies star banker Michael Stock was tasked with finding investors to buy in.
What exactly is Stock offering up? We give you a claim to several years worth of ticket receipts and broadcast revenue to losing games, played in front of half-full stadiums. The Wallabies are going to get spanked 3-0 by the British Lions on home soil in 2025. But you and the lads can get a box on the halfway line.
Earlier this year, McLennan tapped former Wallabies flanker Phil Waugh to lead the turnaround. McLennan, graduate of the exclusive Sydney Church of England Grammar School, needed a CEO to execute the game’s vision and settled on ... another Shore boy.
Waugh was then given ample space in this newspaper to explain his “plan to save Australian rugby”. Along with trying to get PE interest and growing the game in western Sydney to fend off competition from competing codes, he had a neat idea.
“I love the concept of an old boys’ day at Allianz Stadium ... three back-to-back GPS [Great Public Schools] games at Allianz Stadium from 11am to 5pm, and you just make it a festival,” Waugh said.
The “save rugby” plan involves a “festival” of Riverview, King’s and Joeys? Phil, that’s not a plan, that’s a Betoota Advocate headline.
After the 2019 World Cup exit, no fewer than 11 former Wallabies captains wrote a letter expressing no confidence in then-CEO Raelene Castle. The group included Nick Farr-Jones, George Gregan, Michael Lynagh, and successfully agitated for Castle to fall on her sword.
The Wallabies are for the first time all but guaranteed to exit a World Cup without making it out of the group stage, strapped to a checked-out coach, with a tied-up chairman. Time to get out the stationery again, boys.
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@Nepia this one?
https://www.afr.com/rear-window/hamish-mclennan-and-rugby-s-schoolboy-errors-20230925-p5e7ee
Hamish McLennan and rugby’s schoolboy errors
The Wallabies slumped to a historic World Cup loss. It’s high time for scrutiny of rugby’s administrators, chief among them, chairman Hamish McLennan.The Wallabies’ descent into national embarrassment territory on Monday morning means the knives are out for coach Eddie Jones, the moody gremlin of global sport.
Australia had their arses handed to them by Wales, inflicting the country’s largest loss in World Cup history. Or in the traditional Welsh: “ffwrch!”
Jones rightly remains the focal point of ire. But scrutiny must show up at the doorstop of Rugby Australia and its cast of administrators.
Rugby Australia CEO Phil Waugh and chairman Hamish McLennan at Allianz Stadium. James Brickwood
What, then, of the performance of Rugby Australia chairman Hamish McLennan? The Hammer’s blue-sky idea was to pilfer Jones. McLennan can’t be blamed for the veteran coach’s baffling selection decisions. He can cop it for signing a clearly past-it coach to a five-year contract on the eve of a World Cup.
You can imagine how it went down. Eddie comes around for dinner at the new Darling Point digs. A few chablis in, Hammer says he should come home. Save the Wallabies. He accepts on one condition, scanning around the $30 million trophy home: “Five years.”
Hammer has his guy! Lock it in, Eddie.
McLennan is a product of corporate Australia’s fail-up culture. After being part of the calamity at Channel Ten on behalf of Lachlan Murdoch, McLennan’s stunning career has soared. He now chairs not only Rugby Australia but occupies the top board seat at News Corp’s REA, media company ARN Media, and serves as deputy chairman at the little shop of horrors, Magellan Financial.
Three chairmanships. The Hammer is the east coast Richard Goyder. The very existence of the McLennans and Goyders – spread obviously too thin to actually provide adequate scrutiny for shareholders – proves the professional director class is taking the piss.
Set aside the Eddie shambles, McLennan’s rugby turnaround narrative hinges on Project Aurora, which proposes hawking off a slice of the sport to investors and private equity. That was supposed to raise $250 million. Jefferies star banker Michael Stock was tasked with finding investors to buy in.
What exactly is Stock offering up? We give you a claim to several years worth of ticket receipts and broadcast revenue to losing games, played in front of half-full stadiums. The Wallabies are going to get spanked 3-0 by the British Lions on home soil in 2025. But you and the lads can get a box on the halfway line.
Earlier this year, McLennan tapped former Wallabies flanker Phil Waugh to lead the turnaround. McLennan, graduate of the exclusive Sydney Church of England Grammar School, needed a CEO to execute the game’s vision and settled on ... another Shore boy.
Waugh was then given ample space in this newspaper to explain his “plan to save Australian rugby”. Along with trying to get PE interest and growing the game in western Sydney to fend off competition from competing codes, he had a neat idea.
“I love the concept of an old boys’ day at Allianz Stadium ... three back-to-back GPS [Great Public Schools] games at Allianz Stadium from 11am to 5pm, and you just make it a festival,” Waugh said.
The “save rugby” plan involves a “festival” of Riverview, King’s and Joeys? Phil, that’s not a plan, that’s a Betoota Advocate headline.
After the 2019 World Cup exit, no fewer than 11 former Wallabies captains wrote a letter expressing no confidence in then-CEO Raelene Castle. The group included Nick Farr-Jones, George Gregan, Michael Lynagh, and successfully agitated for Castle to fall on her sword.
The Wallabies are for the first time all but guaranteed to exit a World Cup without making it out of the group stage, strapped to a checked-out coach, with a tied-up chairman. Time to get out the stationery again, boys.
@bayimports
That's a good article, thanks for pastingThe Betoota reference is spot on. The ARU is increasingly indistinguishable from satire.
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@Nepia this one?
https://www.afr.com/rear-window/hamish-mclennan-and-rugby-s-schoolboy-errors-20230925-p5e7ee
Hamish McLennan and rugby’s schoolboy errors
The Wallabies slumped to a historic World Cup loss. It’s high time for scrutiny of rugby’s administrators, chief among them, chairman Hamish McLennan.The Wallabies’ descent into national embarrassment territory on Monday morning means the knives are out for coach Eddie Jones, the moody gremlin of global sport.
Australia had their arses handed to them by Wales, inflicting the country’s largest loss in World Cup history. Or in the traditional Welsh: “ffwrch!”
Jones rightly remains the focal point of ire. But scrutiny must show up at the doorstop of Rugby Australia and its cast of administrators.
Rugby Australia CEO Phil Waugh and chairman Hamish McLennan at Allianz Stadium. James Brickwood
What, then, of the performance of Rugby Australia chairman Hamish McLennan? The Hammer’s blue-sky idea was to pilfer Jones. McLennan can’t be blamed for the veteran coach’s baffling selection decisions. He can cop it for signing a clearly past-it coach to a five-year contract on the eve of a World Cup.
You can imagine how it went down. Eddie comes around for dinner at the new Darling Point digs. A few chablis in, Hammer says he should come home. Save the Wallabies. He accepts on one condition, scanning around the $30 million trophy home: “Five years.”
Hammer has his guy! Lock it in, Eddie.
McLennan is a product of corporate Australia’s fail-up culture. After being part of the calamity at Channel Ten on behalf of Lachlan Murdoch, McLennan’s stunning career has soared. He now chairs not only Rugby Australia but occupies the top board seat at News Corp’s REA, media company ARN Media, and serves as deputy chairman at the little shop of horrors, Magellan Financial.
Three chairmanships. The Hammer is the east coast Richard Goyder. The very existence of the McLennans and Goyders – spread obviously too thin to actually provide adequate scrutiny for shareholders – proves the professional director class is taking the piss.
Set aside the Eddie shambles, McLennan’s rugby turnaround narrative hinges on Project Aurora, which proposes hawking off a slice of the sport to investors and private equity. That was supposed to raise $250 million. Jefferies star banker Michael Stock was tasked with finding investors to buy in.
What exactly is Stock offering up? We give you a claim to several years worth of ticket receipts and broadcast revenue to losing games, played in front of half-full stadiums. The Wallabies are going to get spanked 3-0 by the British Lions on home soil in 2025. But you and the lads can get a box on the halfway line.
Earlier this year, McLennan tapped former Wallabies flanker Phil Waugh to lead the turnaround. McLennan, graduate of the exclusive Sydney Church of England Grammar School, needed a CEO to execute the game’s vision and settled on ... another Shore boy.
Waugh was then given ample space in this newspaper to explain his “plan to save Australian rugby”. Along with trying to get PE interest and growing the game in western Sydney to fend off competition from competing codes, he had a neat idea.
“I love the concept of an old boys’ day at Allianz Stadium ... three back-to-back GPS [Great Public Schools] games at Allianz Stadium from 11am to 5pm, and you just make it a festival,” Waugh said.
The “save rugby” plan involves a “festival” of Riverview, King’s and Joeys? Phil, that’s not a plan, that’s a Betoota Advocate headline.
After the 2019 World Cup exit, no fewer than 11 former Wallabies captains wrote a letter expressing no confidence in then-CEO Raelene Castle. The group included Nick Farr-Jones, George Gregan, Michael Lynagh, and successfully agitated for Castle to fall on her sword.
The Wallabies are for the first time all but guaranteed to exit a World Cup without making it out of the group stage, strapped to a checked-out coach, with a tied-up chairman. Time to get out the stationery again, boys.
@bayimports said in Aussie Rugby:
After the 2019 World Cup exit, no fewer than 11 former Wallabies captains wrote a letter expressing no confidence in then-CEO Raelene Castle. The group included Nick Farr-Jones, George Gregan, Michael Lynagh, and successfully agitated for Castle to fall on her sword.
The Wallabies are for the first time all but guaranteed to exit a World Cup without making it out of the group stage, strapped to a checked-out coach, with a tied-up chairman. Time to get out the stationery again, boys.
Our own @barbarian tweeted something much to the same effect.
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AFR has some very good writers. I particularly enjoy reading Joe Aston's work.
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AFR has some very good writers. I particularly enjoy reading Joe Aston's work.
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby:
AFR has some very good writers. I particularly enjoy reading Joe Aston's work.
as do most people not called Alan, Richard or Christine
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Hoiles' comment "If it came down to cutting a Super Rugby team to improve results, I'm all for it".
Now he's defending himself in the twitterverse.
Mr "Club Rugby Is Thriving" thinks we can shrink to greatness.
@NTA said in Aussie Rugby:
Hoiles' comment "If it came down to cutting a Super Rugby team to improve results, I'm all for it".
Now he's defending himself in the twitterverse.
Mr "Club Rugby Is Thriving" thinks we can shrink to greatness.
Well you've already expanded to contraction.
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@antipodean very interesting chat
I feel like the super rugby chat they're both right
But I do believe that, on either side of the Ta$man, we don't play enough elite rugby. Super Rugby is too short
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@antipodean very interesting chat
I feel like the super rugby chat they're both right
But I do believe that, on either side of the Ta$man, we don't play enough elite rugby. Super Rugby is too short
@mariner4life I get their argument about three SR sides raises the level for players due to competition and that helps the Wallabies.
The problem is I don't think that helps widen the base long term.
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100%
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@mariner4life I get their argument about three SR sides raises the level for players due to competition and that helps the Wallabies.
The problem is I don't think that helps widen the base long term.
@antipodean Having fewer sides would allow higher quality combinations to form, no?
If they focus on the grassroots issues and develop a legitimate domestic competition, they can widen the base in the long term. It won't happen if they stick with the status quo, so why not try something innovative to allow the Wallabies to be competitive in the short term.
Ireland have 3 main provinces, and Connacht. Of the 3 main ones, Leinster dominates. When you look at the Leinster provincial development structure and you see an incredibly efficient, streamlined programme that identifies and develops young talented players, and provides a great environment for coaches.
Ireland lead the way for now. Oz could do worse than look to replicate their model, especially as they are similar to Ireland in that there are other more popular codes vying for the best young talent. How Ireland are retaining their young rugby players in the system is probably something Oz, and NZ, could well look at.
To think that rugby is dwarfed by GAA too.
"Even so, rugby is dwarfed by Gaelic games, and especially football. As things stand currently, the GAA has 85,581 adult male players, over four times the estimated 21,000 adult players registered with the IRFU. In other words, Dublin probably has a greater playing pool of talent in Gaelic football with which to take on the other 32 counties than Ireland has to compete against the leading rugby playing nations."
