RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy
-
I read somewhere DMac said Foster gives them (I presume the 10s) a lot of freedom
-
I read somewhere DMac said Foster gives them (I presume the 10s) a lot of freedom
@nostrildamus said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
I read somewhere DMac said Foster gives them (I presume the 10s) a lot of freedom
That might be half the problem!
-
@nostrildamus said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
I read somewhere DMac said Foster gives them (I presume the 10s) a lot of freedom
That might be half the problem!
@canefan they need to be able to play whats in front of them and react to something they see, but look at the Irish, they are so disiplined in what they do, particularly on defence, they are all in, this then pressures the opposition creating opportunities and giving the freedom to attack, which is also because they have the trust in thier defensive system if it doesnt come off, but also, more often than not, they get the fuck out of thier 22, properly, as do several other top sides.
With the stats re kicking about at present and playing in the opposition half, it makes you wonder what either Foster is seeing to have plans for these short kicks, or, what the players think they are seeing over and over when the short kick is just putting more pressure on themselves.
-
I haven’t been on this site for a while until the last week or so, I’m beginning to wonder if I’ve found the wrong Silver Fern. NZ will batter Italy, it will not be close.
Hey Dodge, I think after 4 years of Foster, most on here are blithering wrecks
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
The forwards seem to have gone backwards under Ryan - despite some bright spots. Their performance against the Boks at Twickenham was the worst I've seen in years.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick a warm up game with zero riding on it as proof the forwards have gone backwards.
The forwards are a hell of a lot better off under Ryan than they were under Plumtree.
@KiwiMurph said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
The forwards seem to have gone backwards under Ryan - despite some bright spots. Their performance against the Boks at Twickenham was the worst I've seen in years.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick a warm up game with zero riding on it as proof the forwards have gone backwards.
Warm-up game or not (and I'd argue no game against the Boks is a warm up game) it was still the worst forward display I've seen for years.
I watched the 2021 loss to France a week or so ago and the same problems were there in the opening game - lack of discipline, precision and ability to handle pressure - but for longer periods of the game.
The forwards are a hell of a lot better off under Ryan than they were under Plumtree.
Up until the last few weeks, I'd agree with you. But looking at the last few games and the debacle that was the 2nd half against England, I'm now not so sure. As I've said before, I hope they can get their RC mojo back.
-
@KiwiMurph said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
The forwards seem to have gone backwards under Ryan - despite some bright spots. Their performance against the Boks at Twickenham was the worst I've seen in years.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick a warm up game with zero riding on it as proof the forwards have gone backwards.
Warm-up game or not (and I'd argue no game against the Boks is a warm up game) it was still the worst forward display I've seen for years.
I watched the 2021 loss to France a week or so ago and the same problems were there in the opening game - lack of discipline, precision and ability to handle pressure - but for longer periods of the game.
The forwards are a hell of a lot better off under Ryan than they were under Plumtree.
Up until the last few weeks, I'd agree with you. But looking at the last few games and the debacle that was the 2nd half against England, I'm now not so sure. As I've said before, I hope they can get their RC mojo back.
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@KiwiMurph said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
The forwards seem to have gone backwards under Ryan - despite some bright spots. Their performance against the Boks at Twickenham was the worst I've seen in years.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick a warm up game with zero riding on it as proof the forwards have gone backwards.
Warm-up game or not (and I'd argue no game against the Boks is a warm up game) it was still the worst forward display I've seen for years.
I watched the 2021 loss to France a week or so ago and the same problems were there in the opening game - lack of discipline, precision and ability to handle pressure - but for longer periods of the game.
The forwards are a hell of a lot better off under Ryan than they were under Plumtree.
Up until the last few weeks, I'd agree with you. But looking at the last few games and the debacle that was the 2nd half against England, I'm now not so sure. As I've said before, I hope they can get their RC mojo back.
Dude the effort in Oz vs Argentina was much worse
-
@KiwiMurph said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
The forwards seem to have gone backwards under Ryan - despite some bright spots. Their performance against the Boks at Twickenham was the worst I've seen in years.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick a warm up game with zero riding on it as proof the forwards have gone backwards.
Warm-up game or not (and I'd argue no game against the Boks is a warm up game) it was still the worst forward display I've seen for years.
I watched the 2021 loss to France a week or so ago and the same problems were there in the opening game - lack of discipline, precision and ability to handle pressure - but for longer periods of the game.
The forwards are a hell of a lot better off under Ryan than they were under Plumtree.
Up until the last few weeks, I'd agree with you. But looking at the last few games and the debacle that was the 2nd half against England, I'm now not so sure. As I've said before, I hope they can get their RC mojo back.
@Victor-Meldrew Discipline. That is the big thing for me. The ABs are unable to exert sufficient pressure on their opponents for long enough without gifting a relieving penalty. Teams are waiting for the ABs to make a mistake or infringe. And they do.
For the ABs to advance much further, the penalty count cannot be above 10 (given what SA, France and Ireland are achieving right now), and they cannot lose a man to a yellow or red (obviously).
-
Beauden Barrett is shit now. He’s lost his speed, doesn’t tackle and avoids contact and taking the ball to the line. He’s not a threat. Still a classy kicker or passer.
We need a threat at 15. Look at someone like Reece Walsh from the NRL. Fast, doesn’t avoid contact and ball playing, the triple threat to create opportunities.
Damian is our man. If fozzie moves Damian to 15 we become World Cup favourites. Would rather risk him making some errors for the chance that we can actually threaten on attack. Go down swinging with Damian instead of being comfortable and only losing by less than 20 with Beaudy.
FYI, Beauden is one of the best players I have seen in his prime. He is an all black legend and should always be remember as one. His time is done now.
@Yeahtheboys Would be a travesty if D-Mac didn’t get a proper taste in a meaningful RWC game between 2019 and this year.
-
@Yeahtheboys Would be a travesty if D-Mac didn’t get a proper taste in a meaningful RWC game between 2019 and this year.
@game_film He'll get plenty of time in the #10 jersey in the next cycle.
-
@Victor-Meldrew Discipline. That is the big thing for me. The ABs are unable to exert sufficient pressure on their opponents for long enough without gifting a relieving penalty. Teams are waiting for the ABs to make a mistake or infringe. And they do.
For the ABs to advance much further, the penalty count cannot be above 10 (given what SA, France and Ireland are achieving right now), and they cannot lose a man to a yellow or red (obviously).
@stodders said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@Victor-Meldrew Discipline. That is the big thing for me. The ABs are unable to exert sufficient pressure on their opponents for long enough without gifting a relieving penalty. Teams are waiting for the ABs to make a mistake or infringe. And they do.
100%. agree. It's been getting steadily worse since around 2016, improved a bit in 2022, huge improvement in this RC but in the last few games has fallen off a cliff.
Whatever switch Ryan, Foster & co flipped earlier this year needs to re-flipped.
-
@stodders said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@Victor-Meldrew Discipline. That is the big thing for me. The ABs are unable to exert sufficient pressure on their opponents for long enough without gifting a relieving penalty. Teams are waiting for the ABs to make a mistake or infringe. And they do.
100%. agree. It's been getting steadily worse since around 2016, improved a bit in 2022, huge improvement in this RC but in the last few games has fallen off a cliff.
Whatever switch Ryan, Foster & co flipped earlier this year needs to re-flipped.
@Victor-Meldrew ABs are still trying to play an aerobic version of the game when the game has evolved to be more anaerobic. The way the ABs trained (explosive power and being athletic) was great when you could send one or two players into a breakdown to generate quick ball. You can rarely do that now.
Teams have to evolve to the way the laws are being applied by refs.
-
Ball in air time is massively down (meaning teams can field bigger, less aerobic players knowing they won't get tired as easily). Attrition is the name of the game.
-
defensive players are being given more leeway at the breakdown. Rucking (in a style) is back and is being rewarded if players stay on their feet. At worst, it allows defences to make a mess and slow ball down.
-
teams that are happier playing without the ball and forcing mistakes through defensive pressure are getting more reward. The box kick is a great attacking platform if you can secure the ball as defences aren't necessarily set. Low risk play with a high reward if you come up with the ball.
-
and finally, teams who kick best (not most, best) are generally getting more reward. Territory is king in the modern risk-averse game.
For me, Ireland are the best team right now because they can play an attritional set piece game if required and they have enough creativity to unlock defences, more through manipulation than a moment of genius. But most of all, they swarm their opponents, not giving them a moment to rest. That is where the ABs need to get back to.
ABs don't need to try to be like SA. Wrong type of cattle. ABs can certainly be as good as Ireland though. It just requires team cohesion, working partnerships in key parts of the team and a large dollop of mana to make everyone work that bit harder for each other. You can see in the Irish team that they would fight for the man to their side. It is a powerful advantage if you get it right.
-
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@KiwiMurph said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
The forwards seem to have gone backwards under Ryan - despite some bright spots. Their performance against the Boks at Twickenham was the worst I've seen in years.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick a warm up game with zero riding on it as proof the forwards have gone backwards.
Warm-up game or not (and I'd argue no game against the Boks is a warm up game) it was still the worst forward display I've seen for years.
I watched the 2021 loss to France a week or so ago and the same problems were there in the opening game - lack of discipline, precision and ability to handle pressure - but for longer periods of the game.
The forwards are a hell of a lot better off under Ryan than they were under Plumtree.
Up until the last few weeks, I'd agree with you. But looking at the last few games and the debacle that was the 2nd half against England, I'm now not so sure. As I've said before, I hope they can get their RC mojo back.
Dude the effort in Oz vs Argentina was much worse
@Machpants said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@KiwiMurph said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
The forwards seem to have gone backwards under Ryan - despite some bright spots. Their performance against the Boks at Twickenham was the worst I've seen in years.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to cherry pick a warm up game with zero riding on it as proof the forwards have gone backwards.
Warm-up game or not (and I'd argue no game against the Boks is a warm up game) it was still the worst forward display I've seen for years.
I watched the 2021 loss to France a week or so ago and the same problems were there in the opening game - lack of discipline, precision and ability to handle pressure - but for longer periods of the game.
The forwards are a hell of a lot better off under Ryan than they were under Plumtree.
Up until the last few weeks, I'd agree with you. But looking at the last few games and the debacle that was the 2nd half against England, I'm now not so sure. As I've said before, I hope they can get their RC mojo back.
Dude the effort in Oz vs Argentina was much worse
Against England we were 25-6 up with 10 minutes to go and effectively gave up. At least we tried to fight back against Argentina in Sydney. Whatever was wrong in the forwards back then still hasn't been fixed.
-
@Victor-Meldrew ABs are still trying to play an aerobic version of the game when the game has evolved to be more anaerobic. The way the ABs trained (explosive power and being athletic) was great when you could send one or two players into a breakdown to generate quick ball. You can rarely do that now.
Teams have to evolve to the way the laws are being applied by refs.
-
Ball in air time is massively down (meaning teams can field bigger, less aerobic players knowing they won't get tired as easily). Attrition is the name of the game.
-
defensive players are being given more leeway at the breakdown. Rucking (in a style) is back and is being rewarded if players stay on their feet. At worst, it allows defences to make a mess and slow ball down.
-
teams that are happier playing without the ball and forcing mistakes through defensive pressure are getting more reward. The box kick is a great attacking platform if you can secure the ball as defences aren't necessarily set. Low risk play with a high reward if you come up with the ball.
-
and finally, teams who kick best (not most, best) are generally getting more reward. Territory is king in the modern risk-averse game.
For me, Ireland are the best team right now because they can play an attritional set piece game if required and they have enough creativity to unlock defences, more through manipulation than a moment of genius. But most of all, they swarm their opponents, not giving them a moment to rest. That is where the ABs need to get back to.
ABs don't need to try to be like SA. Wrong type of cattle. ABs can certainly be as good as Ireland though. It just requires team cohesion, working partnerships in key parts of the team and a large dollop of mana to make everyone work that bit harder for each other. You can see in the Irish team that they would fight for the man to their side. It is a powerful advantage if you get it right.
@stodders said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
ABs don't need to try to be like SA. Wrong type of cattle. ABs can certainly be as good as Ireland though. It just requires team cohesion, working partnerships in key parts of the team and a large dollop of mana to make everyone work that bit harder for each other.
Totally agree.
But the key issue for me is still there: our inability to maintain focus for long periods of time - collective headspace. Fuck knows what the issue is or how to fix it, but it's been there since '16. Improves every now and then but invariably turns out to be a false dawn.
-
-
This is the same All Blacks team that’s lost twice to Argentina, coming up against the most talented Italian squad ever assembled.
If we are to ever lost to Italy, this would be the time. Crowley will have the Italians dialled right in for this.
@Wurzel said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
This is the same All Blacks team that’s lost twice to Argentina, coming up against the most talented Italian squad ever assembled.
If we are to ever lost to Italy, this would be the time. Crowley will have the Italians dialled right in for this.
I’ve actually watched the Italians play this WC and we are not losing to them. Anyone can freely quote this post back at me should we lose. 4TBP with room to spare (provided no idiotic red cards)
-
Beauden Barrett is shit now. He’s lost his speed, doesn’t tackle and avoids contact and taking the ball to the line. He’s not a threat. Still a classy kicker or passer.
We need a threat at 15. Look at someone like Reece Walsh from the NRL. Fast, doesn’t avoid contact and ball playing, the triple threat to create opportunities.
Damian is our man. If fozzie moves Damian to 15 we become World Cup favourites. Would rather risk him making some errors for the chance that we can actually threaten on attack. Go down swinging with Damian instead of being comfortable and only losing by less than 20 with Beaudy.
FYI, Beauden is one of the best players I have seen in his prime. He is an all black legend and should always be remember as one. His time is done now.
@Yeahtheboys said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
Beauden Barrett is shit now. He’s lost his speed, doesn’t tackle and avoids contact and taking the ball to the line. He’s not a threat. Still a classy kicker or passer.
We need a threat at 15. Look at someone like Reece Walsh from the NRL. Fast, doesn’t avoid contact and ball playing, the triple threat to create opportunities.
Damian is our man. If fozzie moves Damian to 15 we become World Cup favourites. Would rather risk him making some errors for the chance that we can actually threaten on attack. Go down swinging with Damian instead of being comfortable and only losing by less than 20 with Beaudy.
FYI, Beauden is one of the best players I have seen in his prime. He is an all black legend and should always be remember as one. His time is done now.
Yes that’s right. Moving McKenzie to 15 will have all pundits powering us past Ire, SA and Fra as firm RWC favourites. Shhh. Don’t tell anyone our secret.
-
NB. Modern rugby matches are decided by
Discipline
Breakdown
Set piece
Defence
Goal kicking
Kicking out of hand
…
…
…
Who plays at 15 -
Who plays at 15
You need a Barratt**
**A three-sided instrument used by NZ coaches when selecting team positions "We weren't too sure who to select at 15 so we used a Barratt”
Just called the taxi....
-
We are in the weird position of being on no-one's radar. Here is an excerpt from the Guardian...usually we are the team under pressure of expectation. This time it's mainly France and Ireland IMO.
"No one, to be clear, is remotely counting out the defending champions South Africa or the flying Fijians but there is a chance that France, Ireland, Wales and England could all make the last four."
-
We are in the weird position of being on no-one's radar. Here is an excerpt from the Guardian...usually we are the team under pressure of expectation. This time it's mainly France and Ireland IMO.
"No one, to be clear, is remotely counting out the defending champions South Africa or the flying Fijians but there is a chance that France, Ireland, Wales and England could all make the last four."
@Billy-Tell It's Foster's time to shine. I will get my hopes up for one more game.
-
@Victor-Meldrew Discipline. That is the big thing for me. The ABs are unable to exert sufficient pressure on their opponents for long enough without gifting a relieving penalty. Teams are waiting for the ABs to make a mistake or infringe. And they do.
For the ABs to advance much further, the penalty count cannot be above 10 (given what SA, France and Ireland are achieving right now), and they cannot lose a man to a yellow or red (obviously).
@stodders said in RWC Week 4: All Blacks v Italy:
@Victor-Meldrew Discipline. That is the big thing for me. The ABs are unable to exert sufficient pressure on their opponents for long enough without gifting a relieving penalty. Teams are waiting for the ABs to make a mistake or infringe. And they do.
For the ABs to advance much further, the penalty count cannot be above 10 (given what SA, France and Ireland are achieving right now), and they cannot lose a man to a yellow or red (obviously).
Fiji have managed ten or less four games in a row, which is Glen Jackson's focus. Look where it has got them
