Aussie Pro Rugby
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@antipodean very interesting chat
I feel like the super rugby chat they're both right
But I do believe that, on either side of the Ta$man, we don't play enough elite rugby. Super Rugby is too short
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@antipodean very interesting chat
I feel like the super rugby chat they're both right
But I do believe that, on either side of the Ta$man, we don't play enough elite rugby. Super Rugby is too short
@mariner4life I get their argument about three SR sides raises the level for players due to competition and that helps the Wallabies.
The problem is I don't think that helps widen the base long term.
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100%
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@mariner4life I get their argument about three SR sides raises the level for players due to competition and that helps the Wallabies.
The problem is I don't think that helps widen the base long term.
@antipodean Having fewer sides would allow higher quality combinations to form, no?
If they focus on the grassroots issues and develop a legitimate domestic competition, they can widen the base in the long term. It won't happen if they stick with the status quo, so why not try something innovative to allow the Wallabies to be competitive in the short term.
Ireland have 3 main provinces, and Connacht. Of the 3 main ones, Leinster dominates. When you look at the Leinster provincial development structure and you see an incredibly efficient, streamlined programme that identifies and develops young talented players, and provides a great environment for coaches.
Ireland lead the way for now. Oz could do worse than look to replicate their model, especially as they are similar to Ireland in that there are other more popular codes vying for the best young talent. How Ireland are retaining their young rugby players in the system is probably something Oz, and NZ, could well look at.
To think that rugby is dwarfed by GAA too.
"Even so, rugby is dwarfed by Gaelic games, and especially football. As things stand currently, the GAA has 85,581 adult male players, over four times the estimated 21,000 adult players registered with the IRFU. In other words, Dublin probably has a greater playing pool of talent in Gaelic football with which to take on the other 32 counties than Ireland has to compete against the leading rugby playing nations."
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@antipodean Having fewer sides would allow higher quality combinations to form, no?
If they focus on the grassroots issues and develop a legitimate domestic competition, they can widen the base in the long term. It won't happen if they stick with the status quo, so why not try something innovative to allow the Wallabies to be competitive in the short term.
Ireland have 3 main provinces, and Connacht. Of the 3 main ones, Leinster dominates. When you look at the Leinster provincial development structure and you see an incredibly efficient, streamlined programme that identifies and develops young talented players, and provides a great environment for coaches.
Ireland lead the way for now. Oz could do worse than look to replicate their model, especially as they are similar to Ireland in that there are other more popular codes vying for the best young talent. How Ireland are retaining their young rugby players in the system is probably something Oz, and NZ, could well look at.
To think that rugby is dwarfed by GAA too.
"Even so, rugby is dwarfed by Gaelic games, and especially football. As things stand currently, the GAA has 85,581 adult male players, over four times the estimated 21,000 adult players registered with the IRFU. In other words, Dublin probably has a greater playing pool of talent in Gaelic football with which to take on the other 32 counties than Ireland has to compete against the leading rugby playing nations."
@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
@antipodean Having fewer sides would allow higher quality combinations to form, no?
If they focus on the grassroots issues and develop a legitimate domestic competition, they can widen the base in the long term. It won't happen if they stick with the status quo, so why not try something innovative to allow the Wallabies to be competitive in the short term.
Ireland have 3 main provinces, and Connacht. Of the 3 main ones, Leinster dominates. When you look at the Leinster provincial development structure and you see an incredibly efficient, streamlined programme that identifies and develops young talented players, and provides a great environment for coaches.
Ireland lead the way for now. Oz could do worse than look to replicate their model, especially as they are similar to Ireland in that there are other more popular codes vying for the best young talent. How Ireland are retaining their young rugby players in the system is probably something Oz, and NZ, could well look at.
To think that rugby is dwarfed by GAA too.
"Even so, rugby is dwarfed by Gaelic games, and especially football. As things stand currently, the GAA has 85,581 adult male players, over four times the estimated 21,000 adult players registered with the IRFU. In other words, Dublin probably has a greater playing pool of talent in Gaelic football with which to take on the other 32 counties than Ireland has to compete against the leading rugby playing nations."
NZ has almost exactly the same number of registered adult male rugby players as Ireland
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@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
@antipodean Having fewer sides would allow higher quality combinations to form, no?
If they focus on the grassroots issues and develop a legitimate domestic competition, they can widen the base in the long term. It won't happen if they stick with the status quo, so why not try something innovative to allow the Wallabies to be competitive in the short term.
Ireland have 3 main provinces, and Connacht. Of the 3 main ones, Leinster dominates. When you look at the Leinster provincial development structure and you see an incredibly efficient, streamlined programme that identifies and develops young talented players, and provides a great environment for coaches.
Ireland lead the way for now. Oz could do worse than look to replicate their model, especially as they are similar to Ireland in that there are other more popular codes vying for the best young talent. How Ireland are retaining their young rugby players in the system is probably something Oz, and NZ, could well look at.
To think that rugby is dwarfed by GAA too.
"Even so, rugby is dwarfed by Gaelic games, and especially football. As things stand currently, the GAA has 85,581 adult male players, over four times the estimated 21,000 adult players registered with the IRFU. In other words, Dublin probably has a greater playing pool of talent in Gaelic football with which to take on the other 32 counties than Ireland has to compete against the leading rugby playing nations."
NZ has almost exactly the same number of registered adult male rugby players as Ireland
Agreed. But Ireland's model has shown it has the beating of NZ's right now. I will strongly caveat that by saying that the strong Euro means Ireland can retain their playing talent more easily than NZ and that is one of the big issues NZ needs to overcome right now.
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Agreed. But Ireland's model has shown it has the beating of NZ's right now. I will strongly caveat that by saying that the strong Euro means Ireland can retain their playing talent more easily than NZ and that is one of the big issues NZ needs to overcome right now.
@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
Agreed. But Ireland's model has shown it has the beating of NZ's right now. I will strongly caveat that by saying that the strong Euro means Ireland can retain their playing talent more easily than NZ and that is one of the big issues NZ needs to overcome right now.
I totally agree that the strong NH seems self-perpetuating - a good club scene, and more importantly , a competitive 6N every year, is a massive foundation for all those nations to stay strong, especially compared to what we seem to have looking forward.
I’d also make the point that the most striking and obvious thing that your graph shows, is that England clearly remain the most underperforming country on the planet…
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@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
Agreed. But Ireland's model has shown it has the beating of NZ's right now. I will strongly caveat that by saying that the strong Euro means Ireland can retain their playing talent more easily than NZ and that is one of the big issues NZ needs to overcome right now.
I totally agree that the strong NH seems self-perpetuating - a good club scene, and more importantly , a competitive 6N every year, is a massive foundation for all those nations to stay strong, especially compared to what we seem to have looking forward.
I’d also make the point that the most striking and obvious thing that your graph shows, is that England clearly remain the most underperforming country on the planet…
@voodoo England should be making the u20 and senior world cups every time with the financial and playing number advantages. Alas, it would appear that it is the coaching that has hindered their development. I thought that was changing several years back when they started to really make a dent at u20 level, but they appear to have regressed back to their mean performance level again.
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@mariner4life I get their argument about three SR sides raises the level for players due to competition and that helps the Wallabies.
The problem is I don't think that helps widen the base long term.
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby:
@mariner4life I get their argument about three SR sides raises the level for players due to competition and that helps the Wallabies.
The problem is I don't think that helps widen the base long term.
Agree, their supposition that if there are only 3 super teams those other players will play club rugby for peanuts and improve the quality of that competition doesn't hold water. Not when you have 17 NRL teams looking for new talent.
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@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby:
@mariner4life I get their argument about three SR sides raises the level for players due to competition and that helps the Wallabies.
The problem is I don't think that helps widen the base long term.
Agree, their supposition that if there are only 3 super teams those other players will play club rugby for peanuts and improve the quality of that competition doesn't hold water. Not when you have 17 NRL teams looking for new talent.
@mooshld said in Aussie Rugby:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby:
@mariner4life I get their argument about three SR sides raises the level for players due to competition and that helps the Wallabies.
The problem is I don't think that helps widen the base long term.
Agree, their supposition that if there are only 3 super teams those other players will play club rugby for peanuts and improve the quality of that competition doesn't hold water. Not when you have 17 NRL teams looking for new talent.
Yup. And Australia (and NZ) are finding it difficult to pay their players enough to resist the lure of the Top 14 (and Pro D2) already. Trying to increase competition by squeezing their paypackets is not going to make them better players, it's just going to make them NRL or France based players.
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@mooshld said in Aussie Rugby:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby:
@mariner4life I get their argument about three SR sides raises the level for players due to competition and that helps the Wallabies.
The problem is I don't think that helps widen the base long term.
Agree, their supposition that if there are only 3 super teams those other players will play club rugby for peanuts and improve the quality of that competition doesn't hold water. Not when you have 17 NRL teams looking for new talent.
Yup. And Australia (and NZ) are finding it difficult to pay their players enough to resist the lure of the Top 14 (and Pro D2) already. Trying to increase competition by squeezing their paypackets is not going to make them better players, it's just going to make them NRL or France based players.
@GibbonRib said in Aussie Rugby:
Yup. And Australia (and NZ) are finding it difficult to pay their players enough to resist the lure of the Top 14 (and Pro D2) already.
And Japan.
Big pay packet. New culture. A dozen games a year.
Sounds good.
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Not to forget that in their day there was a pathway from senior club rugby into a rep team. That doesn't exist now. You come in through an academy system. Pro clubs aren't scouring the lower leagues for overlooked players.
@mooshld said in Aussie Rugby:
Not to forget that in their day there was a pathway from senior club rugby into a rep team. That doesn't exist now. You come in through an academy system. Pro clubs aren't scouring the lower leagues for overlooked players.
Very little scope for late bloomers. League has a huge pyramid under each NRL side that provides enough wheat to discard the chaff.
Rugby here is pinning its hopes on schools rugby that is known for warehousing talent and dominating the odd comp. You might be the kind of player to hit your straps after you turn 18, or didn't play in the right team, or just politics.
Too fucking late for the vast majority. Not many Fardy's coming through a broken system these days
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@mooshld said in Aussie Rugby:
Not to forget that in their day there was a pathway from senior club rugby into a rep team. That doesn't exist now. You come in through an academy system. Pro clubs aren't scouring the lower leagues for overlooked players.
Very little scope for late bloomers. League has a huge pyramid under each NRL side that provides enough wheat to discard the chaff.
Rugby here is pinning its hopes on schools rugby that is known for warehousing talent and dominating the odd comp. You might be the kind of player to hit your straps after you turn 18, or didn't play in the right team, or just politics.
Too fucking late for the vast majority. Not many Fardy's coming through a broken system these days
@NTA said in Aussie Rugby:
@mooshld said in Aussie Rugby:
Not to forget that in their day there was a pathway from senior club rugby into a rep team. That doesn't exist now. You come in through an academy system. Pro clubs aren't scouring the lower leagues for overlooked players.
Rugby here is pinning its hopes on schools rugby that is known for warehousing talent and dominating the odd comp. You might be the kind of player to hit your straps after you turn 18, or didn't play in the right team, or just politics.
Or just not go to the right school
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The above arguments were the exact same ones used before expansion and look how successful that was. There was never anything like the depth required for 4 teams, let alone 5. Aus super teams became the whipping boys of the comp. Ffs guys like Adam freaking Thomson were being brought to the Reds because they didn't have the cattle. Multi-million dollar contracts were paid for NRL players, one of whom was made the face of the game in Aus. We all know how well that went...
And astonishingly enough, players still went overseas.
Expansion has been an absolute disaster for Aus rugby. -
@mooshld said in Aussie Rugby:
Not to forget that in their day there was a pathway from senior club rugby into a rep team. That doesn't exist now. You come in through an academy system. Pro clubs aren't scouring the lower leagues for overlooked players.
Very little scope for late bloomers. League has a huge pyramid under each NRL side that provides enough wheat to discard the chaff.
Rugby here is pinning its hopes on schools rugby that is known for warehousing talent and dominating the odd comp. You might be the kind of player to hit your straps after you turn 18, or didn't play in the right team, or just politics.
Too fucking late for the vast majority. Not many Fardy's coming through a broken system these days
@NTA said in Aussie Rugby:
League has a huge pyramid under each NRL side that provides enough wheat to discard the chaff.
the benefits of a coherent system
Kangaroos
State of Origin
NRL (17 teams)
State Leagues (Q-Cup & NSW Cup, 26 teams total)
Park-level Club Competitions (hundreds)Throw in the U20/18s/16s of the NRL sides in NSW/Q-Cup sides in Qld that have state comps.
All playing at the same time. And players move up and down as form or need warrants.
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@NTA said in Aussie Rugby:
League has a huge pyramid under each NRL side that provides enough wheat to discard the chaff.
the benefits of a coherent system
Kangaroos
State of Origin
NRL (17 teams)
State Leagues (Q-Cup & NSW Cup, 26 teams total)
Park-level Club Competitions (hundreds)Throw in the U20/18s/16s of the NRL sides in NSW/Q-Cup sides in Qld that have state comps.
All playing at the same time. And players move up and down as form or need warrants.
@mariner4life it is baffling that you can see a few different successful options for competition/format around the world in different sports....and yet rugby cant pick one and stick with it
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@mariner4life it is baffling that you can see a few different successful options for competition/format around the world in different sports....and yet rugby cant pick one and stick with it
@Kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:
and yet rugby cant pick one and stick with it
rugby isn't allowed to because tradition is everything
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@Kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:
and yet rugby cant pick one and stick with it
rugby isn't allowed to because tradition is everything
@mariner4life i get what your saying....but im not even sure thats it, because i think we could have formed something that fit next to (above and below) most of not all traditional comps....but rather than putting in that effort we've (and i think NZ isn't actually much better) just tried sticking different comps kind of next too...or overlapping with the old ones...and then thrown are hands in the air and wondered why it isn't working
I believe tradition is important too, a lot of those successful comps around the wold are at least partially successful because of the tribal nature of the support spawned a lot for history and tradition
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Agreed. But Ireland's model has shown it has the beating of NZ's right now. I will strongly caveat that by saying that the strong Euro means Ireland can retain their playing talent more easily than NZ and that is one of the big issues NZ needs to overcome right now.
@stodders said in Aussie Rugby:
Agreed. But Ireland's model has shown it has the beating of NZ's right now. I will strongly caveat that by saying that the strong Euro means Ireland can retain their playing talent more easily than NZ and that is one of the big issues NZ needs to overcome right now.
Not sure that is solvable “right now” or in the immediate future. The NZ dollar is weak, the amount of $ coming into the game in NZ isn’t exactly enough to retain that fringe AB/second tier of players that are still attractive to overseas clubs.
There are a number of issues facing Aussie rugby and unfortunately not having success is going to mean that they will be an after thought to getting any sort of meaningful coverage. Super rugby pfft, many ardent sports loving Aussies wouldn’t know it exists. It hasn’t always been like that because I recall times when rugby has received decent coverage when the the AFL and NRL was booming - but that’s because the Wallabies were strong.
It’s a tough thing to try and turnaround because they need the things underneath the Wallabies to have some semblance of good governance and success to make the Wallabies viable.
