RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@OomPB PSdT was friggen immense! What an engine.
@Old-Samurai-Jack up there as one of the best individual performances for a number of years.
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Rugby has issues as a sport that entertains. It’s losing that battle and has real risk issues being a collision sport. Critical to this is the administration being dominated by NH. The NH mindset is based on a static (important) forwards power game whereas SH teams use the ball more. As the game has become more defensively oriented we see endless box kicks and lineout malls dominate. It’s not that they are not part of the game, it’s just about balance. If we want entertainment then the balance should be moved to reward teams that carry, pass, and most importantly speed up the game. You would think that France and Ireland would now want to see a change in administration to that end?
On the collision side, the final demonstrated the problem. Any head contact is an issue. If the tackler is aiming at chest then the head is always in play because of changes in height and lateral movements. The issue then becomes that at speed any card decision is subjective. Not sure how you could every coach for that. As someone said before until they lower the height of all tackles the law and its application is a joke.
Which brings us back to the entertainment factor. Playing with 14 men ruins the spectacle. How the NH power mongers don’t see that I don’t know? The solutions on table are 20m red card or referral system. I favour a combination - referral unless malicious, which should be a high threshold that sees 20 min red.
As for suggestions that Cane’s shoulder tackle was more impactful than head to head, just pure nonsense. Anyone that’s played rugby knows that straight head to head contact is just as bad if not a lot worse.
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The morning after starts with a moerse head ache.
PSdT was massive. Although Fourie struggled with his line out throwing, to be 37 years old, nearly starting as nr2 and even captain the Springboks in a WC final, played like a foks terrier. For the All Blacks I thought Retallick was huge.
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Question: Why can’t we revert to the system where TMOs get to intervene only in cases of foul play or when asked to do so by the referee? Imagine a court system where the judge on the bench’s every adjudication is second-guessed by a shadowy back room panel pouring over case law going back to the 17th century. Think about the injustice of this system. It’s QCs at dawn during three-hour judiciary hearings in post-game proceedings, but a back room bunker decides within minutes in the middle of a game where a yellow card should be upgraded to a red. In both the NRL and AFL, these decisions are left till a judiciary hearing and the full quota of players is kept on the field - a sensible decision for safety reasons if nothing else. World Rugby has this wrong. Red cards should be limited to obvious intentionally foul play. It is clear that so many of these cards are being given for either accidental incidents or poor technique or just a sudden change in position. I know the legal eagles at WR are paranoid about potential class actions from players suffering premature dementia because of repeated head-knocks, but this system is clearly not working. It defies common sense and it puts hugely capable and fair referees like Wayne Barnes in a dreadful position.
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Rugby has issues as a sport that entertains. It’s losing that battle and has real risk issues being a collision sport. Critical to this is the administration being dominated by NH. The NH mindset is based on a static (important) forwards power game whereas SH teams use the ball more. As the game has become more defensively oriented we see endless box kicks and lineout malls dominate. It’s not that they are not part of the game, it’s just about balance. If we want entertainment then the balance should be moved to reward teams that carry, pass, and most importantly speed up the game. You would think that France and Ireland would now want to see a change in administration to that end?
On the collision side, the final demonstrated the problem. Any head contact is an issue. If the tackler is aiming at chest then the head is always in play because of changes in height and lateral movements. The issue then becomes that at speed any card decision is subjective. Not sure how you could every coach for that. As someone said before until they lower the height of all tackles the law and its application is a joke.
Which brings us back to the entertainment factor. Playing with 14 men ruins the spectacle. How the NH power mongers don’t see that I don’t know? The solutions on table are 20m red card or referral system. I favour a combination - referral unless malicious, which should be a high threshold that sees 20 min red.
As for suggestions that Cane’s shoulder tackle was more impactful than head to head, just pure nonsense. Anyone that’s played rugby knows that straight head to head contact is just as bad if not a lot worse.
@kev Your suggestions make absolute sense, but I fear we are talking to a brick wall. It’s hard not to suspect, as you say, that the bureaucrats making these decisions are doing so with a completely different conception of what rugby should be. Clearly, there are no marketing people involved. Their sheer pigheadedness and refusal to see reason suggest a circling of the wagons by certain of the game’s powerbrokers defending vested interests. It’s corruption or incompetence, or perhaps a combination of them both. Private equity needs to get involved and roll some of these people.
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@kev Your suggestions make absolute sense, but I fear we are talking to a brick wall. It’s hard not to suspect, as you say, that the bureaucrats making these decisions are doing so with a completely different conception of what rugby should be. Clearly, there are no marketing people involved. Their sheer pigheadedness and refusal to see reason suggest a circling of the wagons by certain of the game’s powerbrokers defending vested interests. It’s corruption or incompetence, or perhaps a combination of them both. Private equity needs to get involved and roll some of these people.
@His-Bobness said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kev Your suggestions make absolute sense, but I fear we are talking to a brick wall. It’s hard not to suspect, as you say, that the bureaucrats making these decisions are doing so with a completely different conception of what rugby should be. Clearly, there are no marketing people involved. Their sheer pigheadedness and refusal to see reason suggest a circling of the wagons by certain of the game’s powerbrokers defending vested interests. It’s corruption or incompetence, or perhaps a combination of them both. Private equity needs to get involved and roll some of these people.
So true. There was an opportunity to roll Bill Beaumont but the NH voted as a block. They see the game differently.
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As a Stormers and WP supporter I love running Rugby. To expect it in any final, even Paarl Interschools, you are in the wrong sport. The Springboks left a few tries on the field. I always knew Pollard is born for finals. He did this since his school days at Paarl Gim. (nearly scored himself)
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@OomPB PSdT was friggen immense! What an engine.
@Old-Samurai-Jack and he didn't play that well in the WC. Left it for the big one.
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As a Stormers and WP supporter I love running Rugby. To expect it in any final, even Paarl Interschools, you are in the wrong sport. The Springboks left a few tries on the field. I always knew Pollard is born for finals. He did this since his school days at Paarl Gim. (nearly scored himself)
@OomPB it’s not just about the WC final. It’s killing all levels of rugby. Super Rugby in particular has big issues - NRL is dominating in the media because they treat their sport as entertainment. And, it’s not an anti SA sentiment as SA have fabulous athletes and ball runners.
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@OomPB it’s not just about the WC final. It’s killing all levels of rugby. Super Rugby in particular has big issues - NRL is dominating in the media because they treat their sport as entertainment. And, it’s not an anti SA sentiment as SA have fabulous athletes and ball runners.
@kev It also ensures that only one style of play dominates in World Cups. The Springboks individually have fantastic skills and are capable of so much more than that. But Erasmus, justifiably cynical about how rugby is run, has developed techniques to squeeze out games in knock-out competitions by playing very little actual rugby. And that’s because he knows the game’s rule-makers and power centres have engineered it to produce an attritional battle that caters to the Northern Hemisphere mindset. Watch a game with a non-rusted on and see how they react to the increasingly stop-start and judicial-dominated nature of the event. Genuine curiosity at first gives way to quiet bemusement, then dismissal. If someone like me now dreads watching international rugby at this level (waiting for the inevitable voice of God from up in the box directing the referee to another card) I’m pretty sure that more footloose people looking to spend their (increasingly limited) discretionary income are going to tune out completely and look somewhere else for entertainment. Because that’s what this game is at the end of the day - entertainment. And if it doesn’t entertain beyond you few diehards that like watching scrum penalties, kicks for the corner and rolling mauls all day, it’s going to die a slow painful death.
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@kev It also ensures that only one style of play dominates in World Cups. The Springboks individually have fantastic skills and are capable of so much more than that. But Erasmus, justifiably cynical about how rugby is run, has developed techniques to squeeze out games in knock-out competitions by playing very little actual rugby. And that’s because he knows the game’s rule-makers and power centres have engineered it to produce an attritional battle that caters to the Northern Hemisphere mindset. Watch a game with a non-rusted on and see how they react to the increasingly stop-start and judicial-dominated nature of the event. Genuine curiosity at first gives way to quiet bemusement, then dismissal. If someone like me now dreads watching international rugby at this level (waiting for the inevitable voice of God from up in the box directing the referee to another card) I’m pretty sure that more footloose people looking to spend their (increasingly limited) discretionary income are going to tune out completely and look somewhere else for entertainment. Because that’s what this game is at the end of the day - entertainment. And if it doesn’t entertain beyond you few diehards that like watching scrum penalties, kicks for the corner and rolling mauls all day, it’s going to die a slow painful death.
@His-Bobness even us diehards struggle with todays game.
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@kev It also ensures that only one style of play dominates in World Cups. The Springboks individually have fantastic skills and are capable of so much more than that. But Erasmus, justifiably cynical about how rugby is run, has developed techniques to squeeze out games in knock-out competitions by playing very little actual rugby. And that’s because he knows the game’s rule-makers and power centres have engineered it to produce an attritional battle that caters to the Northern Hemisphere mindset. Watch a game with a non-rusted on and see how they react to the increasingly stop-start and judicial-dominated nature of the event. Genuine curiosity at first gives way to quiet bemusement, then dismissal. If someone like me now dreads watching international rugby at this level (waiting for the inevitable voice of God from up in the box directing the referee to another card) I’m pretty sure that more footloose people looking to spend their (increasingly limited) discretionary income are going to tune out completely and look somewhere else for entertainment. Because that’s what this game is at the end of the day - entertainment. And if it doesn’t entertain beyond you few diehards that like watching scrum penalties, kicks for the corner and rolling mauls all day, it’s going to die a slow painful death.
@His-Bobness said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kev It also ensures that only one style of play dominates in World Cups. The Springboks individually have fantastic skills and are capable of so much more than that. But Erasmus, justifiably cynical about how rugby is run, has developed techniques to squeeze out games in knock-out competitions by playing very little actual rugby. And that’s because he knows the game’s rule-makers and power centres have engineered it to produce an attritional battle that caters to the Northern Hemisphere mindset. Watch a game with a non-rusted on and see how they react to the increasingly stop-start and judicial-dominated nature of the event. Genuine curiosity at first gives way to quiet bemusement, then dismissal. If someone like me now dreads watching international rugby at this level (waiting for the inevitable voice of God from up in the box directing the referee to another card) I’m pretty sure that more footloose people looking to spend their (increasingly limited) discretionary income are going to tune out completely and look somewhere else for entertainment. Because that’s what this game is at the end of the day - entertainment. And if it doesn’t entertain beyond you few diehards that like watching scrum penalties, kicks for the corner and rolling mauls all day, it’s going to die a slow painful death.
Have you got viewing figure numbers to back up your view? I’d say viewing figures are up. I’m not disputing that 10-man rugby seems to be the key to RWC success, but tickets were very hard to get and I imagine lots of people watched the games. I don’t think enough credit given to SAs defence yesterday, especially PSDT. NZ tried to play but came unstuck.
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The 2019 semi was easier to digest for me, England was awesome in that test. Yesterday's has too many "what ifs"
@Tordah said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The 2019 semi was easier to digest for me, England was awesome in that test. Yesterday's has too many "what ifs"
This is going to my problem too. It was so, so, so, close.
Maybe we were always going to experience the flip side of the 2011 RWC win at some point?
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@His-Bobness said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@kev It also ensures that only one style of play dominates in World Cups. The Springboks individually have fantastic skills and are capable of so much more than that. But Erasmus, justifiably cynical about how rugby is run, has developed techniques to squeeze out games in knock-out competitions by playing very little actual rugby. And that’s because he knows the game’s rule-makers and power centres have engineered it to produce an attritional battle that caters to the Northern Hemisphere mindset. Watch a game with a non-rusted on and see how they react to the increasingly stop-start and judicial-dominated nature of the event. Genuine curiosity at first gives way to quiet bemusement, then dismissal. If someone like me now dreads watching international rugby at this level (waiting for the inevitable voice of God from up in the box directing the referee to another card) I’m pretty sure that more footloose people looking to spend their (increasingly limited) discretionary income are going to tune out completely and look somewhere else for entertainment. Because that’s what this game is at the end of the day - entertainment. And if it doesn’t entertain beyond you few diehards that like watching scrum penalties, kicks for the corner and rolling mauls all day, it’s going to die a slow painful death.
Have you got viewing figure numbers to back up your view? I’d say viewing figures are up. I’m not disputing that 10-man rugby seems to be the key to RWC success, but tickets were very hard to get and I imagine lots of people watched the games. I don’t think enough credit given to SAs defence yesterday, especially PSDT. NZ tried to play but came unstuck.
@Billy-Tell
Have you? Serious question.
Because I doubt the viewing figures were fantastic past the QFs. Also doubt any neutral non-rugby fan will be excited about another game like that. -
@sparky said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
TMO missed this.
https://twitter.com/preciousjunhee/status/1718355031441752146
That is why I have a problem with where rugby has gotten to.
Barnes didn’t see Cane red card, but TMO did. But if TMO didn’t call that but brought things back for Etzebeth red ABs win.
Reductio ad absurdem, why not dispense with the game and just have a coin toss?
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@sparky said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
TMO missed this.
https://twitter.com/preciousjunhee/status/1718355031441752146
That is why I have a problem with where rugby has gotten to.
Barnes didn’t see Cane red card, but TMO did. But if TMO didn’t call that but brought things back for Etzebeth red ABs win.
Reductio ad absurdem, why not dispense with the game and just have a coin toss?
A clip of it. How the TMO can ignore this is beyond me.
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@OomPB it’s not just about the WC final. It’s killing all levels of rugby. Super Rugby in particular has big issues - NRL is dominating in the media because they treat their sport as entertainment. And, it’s not an anti SA sentiment as SA have fabulous athletes and ball runners.
@kev This is going on for ages. Rugby in SA and the URC is growing like a veld fire after Covid.
If you want to grow rugby, start with the lowest structure level of the sport and it will grow upwards.
Look at top level isnt the way to go. Changing rules , go support rugby league.
When we played rugby in our day, the coaches bliksem us for not tackling around the ankles.
Its not something new, its an old basic rule of rugby. Running into an opponent like Kolisi and Cane is never on.
