The Current State of Rugby
-
-
A few weeks on from the RWC and I haven't watched any rugby since - not even any highlights. Just like I followed Cricket with a passion and then simply lost interest, I'm starting to get the same vibes about Rugby. Reasons?
Refereeing: Not the referee's as I think they do a pretty good job overall but the erratic, constantly changing, re-assessed, re-applied, dis-applied rules around tackling, TMO input, disciplinary outcomes and, well, just about everything. I want a game of rugby, not a fucking lottery where some bloke in a truck randomly sees something and acts on it.
Rules: I'm not thick or senile, but struggle to keep up with the changes and variances between countries and tournaments. No the only one - a local bloke who's a pretty good ref admitted he gets as confused as me.
Supporters (some of). Maybe a transitory thing but there seems to be way too much tribalism creeping in with booing and taunting the players. Not to be confused with passion, groaning at a decision or chanting/singing support for your team. Twickenham was appalling 10-15 years ago for this but the atmosphere has been great recently with maybe more passion than ever.
Respect: One of the great things about Rugby was its total opposite to the cynicism you see in Soccer. Not any more as the dividing line is getting blurrier and blurrier. The abuse handed out to the officials at this RWC was bang out of order. Criticise the Ref by all means but death threats? Threats to kill his family?
Player attitudes: There's always been dickheads but (maybe I'm just old) there now seems more of them and their actions now almost seem to be not only tolerated but celebrated. Sexton may be a great 10 but he's one fucking awful rugby player.
Journalists. Acerbic analysis is great but we now seem to have a competition on who can be the most insulting, ignorant and stir up the most trouble. The same loons who say spent years attacking Umaga are now complaining about the mental pressure put on Farrell....by the media. Wise up arseholes - you're the ones who incubated this poisonous shit.
Coaches. They aren't more important than the players, aren't gods, miracle-workers or rocket scientists. Waving coloured lights about or saying "We have to improve our defence and kicking game" doesn't make you a genius or savior of the universe. Time we stopped thinking they are and putting them on a pedestal or casting them into the 9th level of Hell.
Smaller nations. Constantly screwed by the money men and the bigger nations. I'd love to see more of the likes of Portugal and Georgia against top-flight sides (even the top sides B teams). Fat chance, so I'm calling World Rugby's bullshit on growing the game.
Could go on and there are good things like the women's game, but I shake my head about the state of the game overall and where it is going.
-
You've missed some great rugby from England and the URC
-
A few weeks on from the RWC and I haven't watched any rugby since - not even any highlights. Just like I followed Cricket with a passion and then simply lost interest, I'm starting to get the same vibes about Rugby. Reasons?
Refereeing: Not the referee's as I think they do a pretty good job overall but the erratic, constantly changing, re-assessed, re-applied, dis-applied rules around tackling, TMO input, disciplinary outcomes and, well, just about everything. I want a game of rugby, not a fucking lottery where some bloke in a truck randomly sees something and acts on it.
Rules: I'm not thick or senile, but struggle to keep up with the changes and variances between countries and tournaments. No the only one - a local bloke who's a pretty good ref admitted he gets as confused as me.
Supporters (some of). Maybe a transitory thing but there seems to be way too much tribalism creeping in with booing and taunting the players. Not to be confused with passion, groaning at a decision or chanting/singing support for your team. Twickenham was appalling 10-15 years ago for this but the atmosphere has been great recently with maybe more passion than ever.
Respect: One of the great things about Rugby was its total opposite to the cynicism you see in Soccer. Not any more as the dividing line is getting blurrier and blurrier. The abuse handed out to the officials at this RWC was bang out of order. Criticise the Ref by all means but death threats? Threats to kill his family?
Player attitudes: There's always been dickheads but (maybe I'm just old) there now seems more of them and their actions now almost seem to be not only tolerated but celebrated. Sexton may be a great 10 but he's one fucking awful rugby player.
Journalists. Acerbic analysis is great but we now seem to have a competition on who can be the most insulting, ignorant and stir up the most trouble. The same loons who say spent years attacking Umaga are now complaining about the mental pressure put on Farrell....by the media. Wise up arseholes - you're the ones who incubated this poisonous shit.
Coaches. They aren't more important than the players, aren't gods, miracle-workers or rocket scientists. Waving coloured lights about or saying "We have to improve our defence and kicking game" doesn't make you a genius or savior of the universe. Time we stopped thinking they are and putting them on a pedestal or casting them into the 9th level of Hell.
Smaller nations. Constantly screwed by the money men and the bigger nations. I'd love to see more of the likes of Portugal and Georgia against top-flight sides (even the top sides B teams). Fat chance, so I'm calling World Rugby's bullshit on growing the game.
Could go on and there are good things like the women's game, but I shake my head about the state of the game overall and where it is going.
@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
A few weeks on from the RWC and I haven't watched any rugby since - not even any highlights. Just like I followed Cricket with a passion and then simply lost interest, I'm starting to get the same vibes about Rugby. Reasons?
Refereeing: Not the referee's as I think they do a pretty good job overall but the erratic, constantly changing, re-assessed, re-applied, dis-applied rules around tackling, TMO input, disciplinary outcomes and, well, just about everything. I want a game of rugby, not a fucking lottery where some bloke in a truck randomly sees something and acts on it.
Rules: I'm not thick or senile, but struggle to keep up with the changes and variances between countries and tournaments. No the only one - a local bloke who's a pretty good ref admitted he gets as confused as me.
Supporters (some of). Maybe a transitory thing but there seems to be way too much tribalism creeping in with booing and taunting the players. Not to be confused with passion, groaning at a decision or chanting/singing support for your team. Twickenham was appalling 10-15 years ago for this but the atmosphere has been great recently with maybe more passion than ever.
Respect: One of the great things about Rugby was its total opposite to the cynicism you see in Soccer. Not any more as the dividing line is getting blurrier and blurrier. The abuse handed out to the officials at this RWC was bang out of order. Criticise the Ref by all means but death threats? Threats to kill his family?
Player attitudes: There's always been dickheads but (maybe I'm just old) there now seems more of them and their actions now almost seem to be not only tolerated but celebrated. Sexton may be a great 10 but he's one fucking awful rugby player.
Journalists. Acerbic analysis is great but we now seem to have a competition on who can be the most insulting, ignorant and stir up the most trouble. The same loons who say spent years attacking Umaga are now complaining about the mental pressure put on Farrell....by the media. Wise up arseholes - you're the ones who incubated this poisonous shit.
Coaches. They aren't more important than the players, aren't gods, miracle-workers or rocket scientists. Waving coloured lights about or saying "We have to improve our defence and kicking game" doesn't make you a genius or savior of the universe. Time we stopped thinking they are and putting them on a pedestal or casting them into the 9th level of Hell.
Smaller nations. Constantly screwed by the money men and the bigger nations. I'd love to see more of the likes of Portugal and Georgia against top-flight sides (even the top sides B teams). Fat chance, so I'm calling World Rugby's bullshit on growing the game.
Could go on and there are good things like the women's game, but I shake my head about the state of the game overall and where it is going.
You’re bang on about respect.
We’re all showing too little of it. Almost everything else you mentioned is a function of that global problem.
Thing is, nothing hurts like losing a rugby game. It’s what makes winning feel so fucking good. Come out on top and the lost teeth, busted rib, strained hammy, crushed nut were all worth it cause the beers are sweeter and the bar trolls look or at least feel like Jenna Jameson. Lose and the pain intensifies, beer’s flat and you suddenly can’t maintain your suspension of disbelief in the foxiness of the low resolution foxes. Somehow that carries through from playing to supporting.
Faced with the reality that they’re gonna wake up tomorrow as losers, in pain lying next to some STD riddled munter, the the temptation is to look for someone to blame. Instead they should show some self-respect and acknowledge their own mistakes and missed chances are a big reason they’ve booked their urethras a date with the long qtip of ignominy. Hell, a little self-respect earlier could’ve avoided it altogether: sometimes you can play brilliantly and lose. And walk away with your head held high (or as high as your ruined neck will allow.)
And while you’re at it you can show respect to the team that beat you. Because, no mistake those points didn’t get on the board themselves and you damn sure didn’t put them there. Those smug fluffybunnies out their bodies on the line at least as determinedly as you did and played the conditions (including the ref) better. The least you can do is show them the respect they earned.
Funny thing about respecting your opponent’s’ performance is that it makes winning sweeter and losing easier to take.
in a slightly different way, the lack of respect for refs is part of a negative feedback loop that’s awful for the game.
If we really love the game and respect what makes it special - applied violence to win a variety of complex but fair contests - then we have to respect that it’s rules are and will remain impossible to arbitrate and enforce perfectly. Refs are going to make mistakes sometimes big ones. That’s part of the game, just like it’s part of the game that you knocked on with the line begging, dickfingers, or let their mouthy ruck rat run right over you. If we can tolerate our teammates’ mistakes because they’re a rock at scrumtime even if they do have hands like a digital watch, and can forgive our fullback for being a revolving door because there is literally no one else, then we should be prepared to forgive refs when they make a shit call in real time.
The more we do that, the more we show real love and respect for the chaotic, complex nature of our game and the impossible job refs have, the more they will reward that respect with games that aren’t ruined by constant, pedantic whistling for shit that didn’t impact the game.
-
Watching some Sevens today, and the speed and spontaneity are really impressive. If only World Rugby would commit to trying to move towards a faster and simpler (less ambiguous rules) game.
@Tim said in The Current State of Rugby:
Watching some Sevens today, and the speed and spontaneity are really impressive. If only World Rugby would commit to trying to move towards a faster and simpler (less ambiguous rules) game.
It has the fun missing from the top-level 15 man game
-
Watching some Sevens today, and the speed and spontaneity are really impressive. If only World Rugby would commit to trying to move towards a faster and simpler (less ambiguous rules) game.
@Tim said in The Current State of Rugby:
Watching some Sevens today, and the speed and spontaneity are really impressive. If only World Rugby would commit to trying to move towards a faster and simpler (less ambiguous rules) game.
And the refs don't take any shit, no time wasting, can't play silly buggers with the ball etc. Even just reffing player behaviour like they do in 7s would massively improve the game
-
@Tim said in The Current State of Rugby:
Watching some Sevens today, and the speed and spontaneity are really impressive. If only World Rugby would commit to trying to move towards a faster and simpler (less ambiguous rules) game.
It has the fun missing from the top-level 15 man game
@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
It has the fun missing from the top-level 15 man game
Normally I would agree with you, but it lacks a lot of the (now well documented on here) frustration as well.
As @Machpants has now mentioned.
-
Hmmm. I see 7s as the gateway drug for referees sin-binning anything & everything that never deserved a card. Wasn't a fan.
@Rapido said in The Current State of Rugby:
Hmmm. I see 7s as the gateway drug for referees sin-binning anything & everything that never deserved a card. Wasn't a fan.
Was certainly more prevalent earlier in sevens and bloody annoying then too. I just made the comment in the sevens thread that 6 on 7 is a hard watch for two minutes.
We really do need a better system for discipline than sending players off. The fans pay the real price for it.
-
@Rapido said in The Current State of Rugby:
Hmmm. I see 7s as the gateway drug for referees sin-binning anything & everything that never deserved a card. Wasn't a fan.
Was certainly more prevalent earlier in sevens and bloody annoying then too. I just made the comment in the sevens thread that 6 on 7 is a hard watch for two minutes.
We really do need a better system for discipline than sending players off. The fans pay the real price for it.
@Snowy sometimes i have wondered, in the case of proper foul play (high tackle etc) whether a penalty try regardless of where on the field and no sending off wouldn't keep the game going, the player obviously doesn't get punished but maybe thats where after match sanctions come in
-
@Snowy sometimes i have wondered, in the case of proper foul play (high tackle etc) whether a penalty try regardless of where on the field and no sending off wouldn't keep the game going, the player obviously doesn't get punished but maybe thats where after match sanctions come in
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Snowy sometimes i have wondered, in the case of proper foul play (high tackle etc) whether a penalty try regardless of where on the field and no sending off wouldn't keep the game going, the player obviously doesn't get punished but maybe thats where after match sanctions come in
Hard to come up with a solution but we need one. The above would probably just give more power to pedants officiating. They can directly affect the outcome, rather indirectly like now when one team can have 79 minutes to overcome opposition with 14 men.
The worst bit is that so many of the red cards are accidental. Negligent sure, but often just a reflex, fling an arm out stuff.
A yellow for a deliberate knock on isn't actually in the law book, the sanction is a penalty - unless it is cynical / prevents a try being scored. Seems to be an awful lot of cynicism and probable tries...
Most of those are just fling an arm out stuff as well, yet we end up without 30 players on the field.The most obvious deliberate knock ons that I have seen are from halfbacks when a penalty has been awarded and they want to take the kick. That is cynical but they never get penalised certainly not sent off. (TBF I haven't noticed it much lately, maybe they got told).
-
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Snowy sometimes i have wondered, in the case of proper foul play (high tackle etc) whether a penalty try regardless of where on the field and no sending off wouldn't keep the game going, the player obviously doesn't get punished but maybe thats where after match sanctions come in
Hard to come up with a solution but we need one. The above would probably just give more power to pedants officiating. They can directly affect the outcome, rather indirectly like now when one team can have 79 minutes to overcome opposition with 14 men.
The worst bit is that so many of the red cards are accidental. Negligent sure, but often just a reflex, fling an arm out stuff.
A yellow for a deliberate knock on isn't actually in the law book, the sanction is a penalty - unless it is cynical / prevents a try being scored. Seems to be an awful lot of cynicism and probable tries...
Most of those are just fling an arm out stuff as well, yet we end up without 30 players on the field.The most obvious deliberate knock ons that I have seen are from halfbacks when a penalty has been awarded and they want to take the kick. That is cynical but they never get penalised certainly not sent off. (TBF I haven't noticed it much lately, maybe they got told).
@Snowy yeah, good points
ive been saying for a while the only way forward is "just let shit go"...so just accept cynical (not like punching and high shots but deliberate knocks for example) and accidental stuff as part of the game...play so as to make cynical stuff harder to do....but obviously thats not an option, fans and officials arent suddenly going to accept all that stuff just so there is less to moan about...
thats why fixing the game is such a tough idea
-
@Snowy yeah, good points
ive been saying for a while the only way forward is "just let shit go"...so just accept cynical (not like punching and high shots but deliberate knocks for example) and accidental stuff as part of the game...play so as to make cynical stuff harder to do....but obviously thats not an option, fans and officials arent suddenly going to accept all that stuff just so there is less to moan about...
thats why fixing the game is such a tough idea
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
thats why fixing the game is such a tough idea
Indeed it is.
When you put words like "deliberate" in any law you are asking for trouble. It is almost impossible to prove intent, we aren't mind readers. NZ tax law is full of "intent" wording and an absolute minefield.
For deliberate knock ons - Intercepts are exciting they add to the drama. Detering players from having a crack and sending them off is fucked (in my opinion of course). Leave the onus on the passer not to give the opposition a sniff at it.
How many times have we seen a player pass to an AR or into the crowd? If it was in the last second of the game, and you are ahead, a kick to touch could be charged, you "pass" it out. Was it thrown out? Deliberately? SBW knocked one dead a while back, (probably forgot which code he was playing) if he had fumbled it dead, it would have been O.K. It was obvious in that case, but should it be an interpretation? That's where league is getting it right and union wrong. Let them do it, in this case anyway. You can run into touch, kick into touch, but not pass into touch, or it's a penalty. A bit random isn't it?
Just clearer, less ambiguous laws, would be a start. Refs have hard enough time without leaving it up to them to decide if something was deliberate. Only one person knows what was intended and FFS leave thirty guys on the field, sort out thuggery separately.
-
I've banged on a bout it heaps, but rugby's problem is, so much stuff is legal right up until it's not. Hand in the ruck is the best illustration. But there are so many infringements in the game that are completely reliant on the referees judgement, around timing, around angle, around intent. You simply cannot expect consistency between referees when these things happen at speed.
And all VAR has done is move the judgement from one guy to another guy. A guy looking at things in slow motion, which actually distorts everything.
League has the advantage that it is a very very simple game. And the only place that judgement comes in to it is the strip. This black and white view though has led to some stupid outcomes, mainly around obstruction. But it is a far simpler game to referee.
Rugby will never be this simple because it is a constant contest
-
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
thats why fixing the game is such a tough idea
Indeed it is.
When you put words like "deliberate" in any law you are asking for trouble. It is almost impossible to prove intent, we aren't mind readers. NZ tax law is full of "intent" wording and an absolute minefield.
For deliberate knock ons - Intercepts are exciting they add to the drama. Detering players from having a crack and sending them off is fucked (in my opinion of course). Leave the onus on the passer not to give the opposition a sniff at it.
How many times have we seen a player pass to an AR or into the crowd? If it was in the last second of the game, and you are ahead, a kick to touch could be charged, you "pass" it out. Was it thrown out? Deliberately? SBW knocked one dead a while back, (probably forgot which code he was playing) if he had fumbled it dead, it would have been O.K. It was obvious in that case, but should it be an interpretation? That's where league is getting it right and union wrong. Let them do it, in this case anyway. You can run into touch, kick into touch, but not pass into touch, or it's a penalty. A bit random isn't it?
Just clearer, less ambiguous laws, would be a start. Refs have hard enough time without leaving it up to them to decide if something was deliberate. Only one person knows what was intended and FFS leave thirty guys on the field, sort out thuggery separately.
@Snowy said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
thats why fixing the game is such a tough idea
Indeed it is.
When you put words like "deliberate" in any law you are asking for trouble. It is almost impossible to prove intent, we aren't mind readers. NZ tax law is full of "intent" wording and an absolute minefield.
For deliberate knock ons - Intercepts are exciting they add to the drama. Detering players from having a crack and sending them off is fucked (in my opinion of course). Leave the onus on the passer not to give the opposition a sniff at it.
How many times have we seen a player pass to an AR or into the crowd? If it was in the last second of the game, and you are ahead, a kick to touch could be charged, you "pass" it out. Was it thrown out? Deliberately? SBW knocked one dead a while back, (probably forgot which code he was playing) if he had fumbled it dead, it would have been O.K. It was obvious in that case, but should it be an interpretation? That's where league is getting it right and union wrong. Let them do it, in this case anyway. You can run into touch, kick into touch, but not pass into touch, or it's a penalty. A bit random isn't it?
Just clearer, less ambiguous laws, would be a start. Refs have hard enough time without leaving it up to them to decide if something was deliberate. Only one person knows what was intended and FFS leave thirty guys on the field, sort out thuggery separately.
agreed on all counts, leave lots of stuff up to the players to attack or defend better rather than using the laws to try (fail) to do it
-
I've banged on a bout it heaps, but rugby's problem is, so much stuff is legal right up until it's not. Hand in the ruck is the best illustration. But there are so many infringements in the game that are completely reliant on the referees judgement, around timing, around angle, around intent. You simply cannot expect consistency between referees when these things happen at speed.
And all VAR has done is move the judgement from one guy to another guy. A guy looking at things in slow motion, which actually distorts everything.
League has the advantage that it is a very very simple game. And the only place that judgement comes in to it is the strip. This black and white view though has led to some stupid outcomes, mainly around obstruction. But it is a far simpler game to referee.
Rugby will never be this simple because it is a constant contest
@mariner4life I agree with what you're saying, and I wasn't suggesting that union got dumbed down to league levels (tongue firmly in cheek) , merely that league has got some things right that union could use. Probably too arrogant to do so, but some simplification wouldn't be too hard. I have even given a couple of examples.
-
A few weeks on from the RWC and I haven't watched any rugby since - not even any highlights. Just like I followed Cricket with a passion and then simply lost interest, I'm starting to get the same vibes about Rugby. Reasons?
Refereeing: Not the referee's as I think they do a pretty good job overall but the erratic, constantly changing, re-assessed, re-applied, dis-applied rules around tackling, TMO input, disciplinary outcomes and, well, just about everything. I want a game of rugby, not a fucking lottery where some bloke in a truck randomly sees something and acts on it.
Rules: I'm not thick or senile, but struggle to keep up with the changes and variances between countries and tournaments. No the only one - a local bloke who's a pretty good ref admitted he gets as confused as me.
Supporters (some of). Maybe a transitory thing but there seems to be way too much tribalism creeping in with booing and taunting the players. Not to be confused with passion, groaning at a decision or chanting/singing support for your team. Twickenham was appalling 10-15 years ago for this but the atmosphere has been great recently with maybe more passion than ever.
Respect: One of the great things about Rugby was its total opposite to the cynicism you see in Soccer. Not any more as the dividing line is getting blurrier and blurrier. The abuse handed out to the officials at this RWC was bang out of order. Criticise the Ref by all means but death threats? Threats to kill his family?
Player attitudes: There's always been dickheads but (maybe I'm just old) there now seems more of them and their actions now almost seem to be not only tolerated but celebrated. Sexton may be a great 10 but he's one fucking awful rugby player.
Journalists. Acerbic analysis is great but we now seem to have a competition on who can be the most insulting, ignorant and stir up the most trouble. The same loons who say spent years attacking Umaga are now complaining about the mental pressure put on Farrell....by the media. Wise up arseholes - you're the ones who incubated this poisonous shit.
Coaches. They aren't more important than the players, aren't gods, miracle-workers or rocket scientists. Waving coloured lights about or saying "We have to improve our defence and kicking game" doesn't make you a genius or savior of the universe. Time we stopped thinking they are and putting them on a pedestal or casting them into the 9th level of Hell.
Smaller nations. Constantly screwed by the money men and the bigger nations. I'd love to see more of the likes of Portugal and Georgia against top-flight sides (even the top sides B teams). Fat chance, so I'm calling World Rugby's bullshit on growing the game.
Could go on and there are good things like the women's game, but I shake my head about the state of the game overall and where it is going.
@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
Supporters (some of). Maybe a transitory thing but there seems to be way too much tribalism creeping in with booing and taunting the players. Not to be confused with passion, groaning at a decision or chanting/singing support for your team. Twickenham was appalling 10-15 years ago for this but the atmosphere has been great recently with maybe more passion than ever.
I'm confused, you start off by saying times are bad, but end up saying it's great?
Anyway, supporters seem as good as ever. The pre RWC final warm up at twickers had a fantastic atmosphere. Bit of banter as you'd expect, but good spirits all around.
Mind you, might have been different if the scorecard was reversed...
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in The Current State of Rugby:
Supporters (some of). Maybe a transitory thing but there seems to be way too much tribalism creeping in with booing and taunting the players. Not to be confused with passion, groaning at a decision or chanting/singing support for your team. Twickenham was appalling 10-15 years ago for this but the atmosphere has been great recently with maybe more passion than ever.
I'm confused, you start off by saying times are bad, but end up saying it's great?
Anyway, supporters seem as good as ever. The pre RWC final warm up at twickers had a fantastic atmosphere. Bit of banter as you'd expect, but good spirits all around.
Mind you, might have been different if the scorecard was reversed...
@Bones said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm confused, you start off by saying times are bad,
I'll explain. I started off saying what I think is wrong with the game and then split it down into sections.
but end up saying it's great?
On supporters, my main point was there was too much tribalism creeping in. I also said some supporters were as good as ever and Twickenham has done a great job in cleaning up most of the shit behaviour we've had there in the past.
