Mental Illness.
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@bones. I try.
He actually does it even better:
"Trauma is not what happens to you. Trauma is what happens inside you as a result of what happens to you."
I'm not a particular follower of his, just read bits and pieces until I get to read the whole thing.
Victor Frankl is another who touches on trauma. He was a psychoanalyst who was in Auschwitz, so has some "lived experience" to draw on for his theories.
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@Snowy Gabor Maté is fantastic and his work has helped my wife and I alot, that book is definitely worth a read if you or someone you know may be suffering from past trauma.
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@No-Quarter said in Mental Illness.:
@Snowy Gabor Maté is fantastic and his work has helped my wife and I alot, that book is definitely worth a read if you or someone you know may he suffering from past trauma.
Yeah, I've read lots of bits of his stuff, just haven't had a chance to read that complete book yet. I stay away from pop psychology self-help type stuff, but he certainly isn't in that category. I'm more interested in the actual psychology, particularly emotional responses and even physiological affects, which make it all a bit more recognisable than what is going on in someone's head. His theories seem to be logical. Interesting history for him too given my comments about Frankl.
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@Bones said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean I've never seen combat as the yardstick for trauma though and don't think it should be.
I don't recall saying that. But within the narrow confine of military service, I can't think of much that would top it.
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@antipodean yeah sure, if you've served in the military. But for example, I reckon firefighters have seen some ghastly shit I don't even want to imagine.
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@Bones said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean yeah sure, if you've served in the military.
Which was the entirety of that point.
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@antipodean ok, my misunderstanding. To me it read like you haven't had trauma unless you've seen combat.
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@Catogrande said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean
. Paraphrased she said “ she’s got nothing to be depressed about, she’s doing the Uni course she always wanted, she has friends, a loving family, she has hobbies, she’s a pretty girl. There’s nothing to be depressed about. And you know what? None of that matters if you can’t see it”.That's the worst shit you hear, people saying you've got a good life why are you depressed? Depression isn't just the result of being unhappy/sad, it's true result of chemicals in the brain. It can be exacerbated by outside life, but it is a medical condition. It can be treated by medicine.
There maybe a big part of diet being the problem with our mental health. Our carb heavy, often just carb meals/snacks, diet not only is making us fat but the spikes and crashes of glucose in the brain has been linked with depression, anxiety, etc.
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@Machpants that's pretty much the guts of it isn't it? being happy/sad is also a result of chemicals in the brain, but working properly. being depressed could arguably be simplified to being sad when you shouldn't be, because some of those chemicals in the brain aren't behaving as they should. so 'what has she got to be depressed about?' is missing the point by about as much as is possible.
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@reprobate said in Mental Illness.:
@Machpants that's pretty much the guts of it isn't it? being happy/sad is also a result of chemicals in the brain, but working properly. being depressed could arguably be simplified to being sad when you shouldn't be, because some of those chemicals in the brain aren't behaving as they should. so 'what has she got to be depressed about?' is missing the point by about as much as is possible.
Indeed, and interestingly guts makes a difference too, we are discovering that our gut microme is a massive influencer of mental health, and out gut microbes are 50% of what they were a few hundred years ago
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@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
But within the narrow confine of military service, I can't think of much that would top it.
As a possible cause of trauma, not as a measure of trauma. The word comes from Greek, meaning wound, so again it is the outcome, not the event that defines the trauma. There is no "top it" because it doesn't matter what happened, it is what happened to the person afterwards.
I guess that the term PTSD is a bit misleading as it infers that the event itself is the trauma which isn't technically true (my pedantry on the semantics perhaps). PTSED (Post traumatic stress event disorder) is a bit of a mouthful. My understanding, and to para phrase it, is a non normal behaviour pattern caused by an event that a particular person deemed so stressful that it altered their frame of mind and consequent actions. (That is why they didn't let me come up the letters to abbreviate it).
The point is that a failed marriage may cause more trauma than seeing your best mate's brains blown out on a battlefield. It depends on the person. A true psychopath would in fact have no psychological wound at all. Which is not to say that people unaffected by such events are psychopaths, just that they have managed to deal with it. Would be great to know exactly how!
So although combat is not doubt an horrific thing to witness it isn't necessarily going to cause any wound or neuroses (in Freudian terms - the Wiki page is actually quite good). That would depend on the individual, it may range from nil to catatonia, and as such isn't a measure (or "yardstick for trauma" as @bones correctly said). The severity of the event is irrelevant.
Why do I care? It is what makes it so interesting (and difficult to fathom) because what might seem a minor trivial event is actually significant to that person, and yet seeing a children's hospital blown up may not have quite the effect that we would expect it to. Dealing with our own issues is a lot easier if we can identify them. As I said above, I've seen some bloody (literally and figuratively) awful things but they usually aren't front and centre if I feel shit and that the world is a truly awful place. Some of our demons can be latent.
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@Machpants said in Mental Illness.:
ndeed, and interestingly guts makes a difference too, we are discovering that our gut microme is a massive influencer of mental health, and out gut microbes are 50% of what they were a few hundred years ago
Apparently they now are considering the gut as a second brain, for want of a better term and yep, hugely significant.
Re the other comments above - to consider depression, or anxiety, as purely chemical imbalances in the brain is thought to be an oversimplification (as you say @reprobate ). It certainly can happen with those results, and yes drugs can alter that, but we don't know enough about it. Serotonin alone is massively complex in what it does and how it affects us. And to come back to the Machpants gut comment it is produced both in the brain and the gastrointestinal tract so very significant as a clue as to how the gut does affect us, and how we should be treating the whole body as a being, not compartmentalising the mind or brain. The body is very much a team effort.
The reason that I mention serotonin is because it was believed that lack of it caused depression but there is actually no evidence to back that up. Even defining depression is problematic, diagnosing more difficult still, and pathology...
Yes, some cases are distinct, diagnosable and treatable, but there are many variables.We also generally learn what works for us to help as well. Whether it be exercise, meditation, playing with the dog, whatever, and it is also why younger people are so problematic, they probably haven't worked out what causes them problems or what helps to remedy it. Most of us adults (term used loosely in my case) still haven't worked it all out.
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
There are some other misconceptions as well about suicide rates being higher when times are tough, or at least unusual. There is some data that rates drop during wartime, economic depressions (unfortunate word) and even during pandemics (including covid). There could be many and varied reasons that are apparent but the "not coping" thing isn't really about external factors it tends to be a more existential crisis. @MajorRage mentioned the "what's the point?" thought. It's a big one. Difficult to know an answer unless you happen to know the meaning of life (if so please DM me).
You are the only one I read that mentioned COVID-19, maybe there were more, but I think the isolation factor and fewer social contacts have had a huge influence on many, especially teenagers, and young adults (grumpy old men, maybe not quite so much). This and our smaller, more isolated families, and possibly diet and the plastics affecting our guts (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/what-do-we-know-about-microplastics-in-food#The-dangers-of-microplastics) and along with general pollution, perhaps, our mental health (https://www.ehn.org/mental-health-2655533166.html)?
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
But within the narrow confine of military service, I can't think of much that would top it.
As a possible cause of trauma, not as a measure of trauma.
Yes, cause. Measuring it via PCL is still subjective.
The word comes from Greek, meaning wound, so again it is the outcome, not the event that defines the trauma. There is no "top it" because it doesn't matter what happened, it is what happened to the person afterwards.
The DSM definition/ diagnosis requires exposure to a traumatic event, what happens after is the emotional or psychological response. So back to my point about the veracity of the traumatic episode (or episodes as typified in police etc.)
In one of the most comprehensive studies undertaken of a specific population, the ADF determined it had over a fifth of its members had a mental disorder in the preceding 12 months. This for a group that is supposed to be selected and trained to bear a psychiatric burden related to the nature of their work. Almost 15% for an anxiety disorder and 10% for an affective disorder. The most interesting for me was the lack of statistical differentiation between those who had deployed and those who hadn't.
Related but different is the suicidality of ex-members, which is at a rate significantly over the general population, manifested in those who had involuntary separation,, specifically for those who had medically discharged at lower rank. And I'm not alone in possessing the suspicion that that's related to a loss of identity and perhaps ability to identify other opportunities.
We shall see what the Final Report of the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide and the Minister's response brings.
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
But within the narrow confine of military service, I can't think of much that would top it.
As a possible cause of trauma, not as a measure of trauma. The word comes from Greek, meaning wound, so again it is the outcome, not the event that defines the trauma. There is no "top it" because it doesn't matter what happened, it is what happened to the person afterwards.
I guess that the term PTSD is a bit misleading as it infers that the event itself is the trauma which isn't technically true (my pedantry on the semantics perhaps). PTSED (Post traumatic stress event disorder) is a bit of a mouthful. My understanding, and to para phrase it, is a non normal behaviour pattern caused by an event that a particular person deemed so stressful that it altered their frame of mind and consequent actions. (That is why they didn't let me come up the letters to abbreviate it).
The point is that a failed marriage may cause more trauma than seeing your best mate's brains blown out on a battlefield. It depends on the person. A true psychopath would in fact have no psychological wound at all. Which is not to say that people unaffected by such events are psychopaths, just that they have managed to deal with it. Would be great to know exactly how!
So although combat is not doubt an horrific thing to witness it isn't necessarily going to cause any wound or neuroses (in Freudian terms - the Wiki page is actually quite good). That would depend on the individual, it may range from nil to catatonia, and as such isn't a measure (or "yardstick for trauma" as @bones correctly said). The severity of the event is irrelevant.
Why do I care? It is what makes it so interesting (and difficult to fathom) because what might seem a minor trivial event is actually significant to that person, and yet seeing a children's hospital blown up may not have quite the effect that we would expect it to. Dealing with our own issues is a lot easier if we can identify them. As I said above, I've seen some bloody (literally and figuratively) awful things but they usually aren't front and centre if I feel shit and that the world is a truly awful place. Some of our demons can be latent.
I find this really interesting and as it turns out it is something we have been talking about at work. Many of us are struggling at work at the moment, with staff shortages and being bogged down by domestic violence. Anyway, I have been reflecting on the way I reacted recently to two very different jobs. One involved a battle keeping a guy alive after he slashed his neck open in our presence and the other was investigating a series of very minor complaints by the same woman. The latter has had a far more affect on my state of mind than the former, yet if I went to the boss and said I was struggling it would be assumed and accepted as legitimate if I cited the throat cut as the reason.
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Some great stuff, just had this pop up on SM, mentions the gut and depression.
Had also watched something the other day called "how to not get cancer" and they mentioned the gut alot too.
Full episode
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@Crazy-Horse said in Mental Illness.:
The latter has had a far more affect on my state of mind than the former, yet if I went to the boss and said I was struggling it would be assumed and accepted as legitimate if I cited the throat cut as the reason.
Exactly what I was getting at. These things affect us all differently and we are often surprised at our own reactions. Being aware of that is a start. You are also correct about what other people think about the way we feel, or should feel, so we usually just go along with it. That can lead to the real issue not being addressed and to get all Freudian - repression. Bear in mind that I read about these things happening, misconceptions, and causes but have no idea on solutions. Sadly I'm not alone there. Some things work for some people and not for others, just as the causes are different. One positive for you is that you still give a shit which is healthy, but doesn't make you feel any better.
I'm actually planning on doing a MAPP (Master of Applied Positive Psychology) because I think that the mind is really the major great unknown left on earth.
@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
The most interesting for me was the lack of statistical differentiation between those who had deployed and those who hadn't.
Yep. There it is again really. Without me jumping to conclusions here and as you suggest, it may be the situation and nature of the job that is the damaging stressor not the violence of combat. Much like the crazy cop's example as well. Your suspicion about the suicide rate is also highly likely from what I have read (and experienced).
In my own case I think personal dramas have caused more distress than for example, the guy who had his foot chopped off with an axe and it went gangrenous. I bloody near smeared myself over the side of a mountain trying get him to hospital and I think that he died anyway. I have much worse and graphic images that I won't share but it was quite disgusting, and his fevered groaning was quite disturbing and upsetting at the time. I'd probably unswallow if I smelled anything even remotely like his rotting foot again, but I think that was the only lasting effect. Having mates not show up for a beer because they didn't get through the day stays with you much more.
Anyway, I've gone on too much on this thread, but I do find it a fascinating topic.
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
The most interesting for me was the lack of statistical differentiation between those who had deployed and those who hadn't.
Yep. There it is again really. Without me jumping to conclusions here and as you suggest, it may be the situation and nature of the job that is the damaging stressor not the violence of combat.
It goes to the second of my two points I raised originally here; namely that there seems to be near universal acceptance because people merely assert it. I genuinely don't understand how it can be the same when one group hasn't the exposure to the depravities of conflict zones.
What manifests in my mind as a complete lack of resilience and I suspect results from us becoming too comfortable too quickly as a species and evolution hasn't kept pace.
Much like the crazy cop's example as well. Your suspicion about the suicide rate is also highly likely from what I have read (and experienced).
One is about depression (affective) vs trauma (anxiety). Apologies, I should've made that clearer by splitting it into two different posts originally.
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@Snowy said in Mental Illness.:
@antipodean said in Mental Illness.:
But within the narrow confine of military service, I can't think of much that would top it.
As a possible cause of trauma, not as a measure of trauma. The word comes from Greek, meaning wound, so again it is the outcome, not the event that defines the trauma. There is no "top it" because it doesn't matter what happened, it is what happened to the person afterwards.
I guess that the term PTSD is a bit misleading as it infers that the event itself is the trauma which isn't technically true (my pedantry on the semantics perhaps). PTSED (Post traumatic stress event disorder) is a bit of a mouthful. My understanding, and to para phrase it, is a non normal behaviour pattern caused by an event that a particular person deemed so stressful that it altered their frame of mind and consequent actions. (That is why they didn't let me come up the letters to abbreviate it).
The point is that a failed marriage may cause more trauma than seeing your best mate's brains blown out on a battlefield. It depends on the person. A true psychopath would in fact have no psychological wound at all. Which is not to say that people unaffected by such events are psychopaths, just that they have managed to deal with it. Would be great to know exactly how!
So although combat is not doubt an horrific thing to witness it isn't necessarily going to cause any wound or neuroses (in Freudian terms - the Wiki page is actually quite good). That would depend on the individual, it may range from nil to catatonia, and as such isn't a measure (or "yardstick for trauma" as @bones correctly said). The severity of the event is irrelevant.
Why do I care? It is what makes it so interesting (and difficult to fathom) because what might seem a minor trivial event is actually significant to that person, and yet seeing a children's hospital blown up may not have quite the effect that we would expect it to. Dealing with our own issues is a lot easier if we can identify them. As I said above, I've seen some bloody (literally and figuratively) awful things but they usually aren't front and centre if I feel shit and that the world is a truly awful place. Some of our demons can be latent.
PTSD is a really interesting one. Iirc instances of PTSD differ wildly among the armed forces of different countries. I think Norway for example had quite high rates while it was super low for the UK. Avoidance is a massive symptom of PTSD. I definitely saw that with my son.
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Interesting.
