NZR review
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@Bovidae said in NZR review:
The New Zealand Rugby (NZR) Board has today publicly released a proposal to change the sport’s leadership structure and create generational change for the game.
Board Chair Dame Patsy Reddy has presented the Board’s Governance model to NZR’s voting members, the 26 Provincial Unions and the New Zealand Māori Rugby Board (NZMRB).
thanks for that.
Reads like a classic consulting document. Basically the words are 'deep knowledge of rugby' but the process screams non-rugby people all the way.
Made me think about who owns NZR. I think it's the PU - all 27 (26?) of them. There's a strong argument for a split between pro and non-pro; leave pro to do what they want with Super, ABs, etc, make a call on NPC one way or another, and then administer most of the game for the benefit of the players and unions.
Professional should be there as the shop window generating funds for the rest of the participants. NPC is literally there to facilitate PU putting teams together and playing each other.
Really not super impressed (pun not intended)
@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
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@Dan54 said in NZR review:
I really not arguing one way or other on board make up, can see both sides. I know the PUs want a say rightly, but to say we need reps who have experience on boards and so hopefully experience on ground running community game,
I think they are only asking for 3 out of 9 board positions.
And surely there are some people involved at this level who have good accounting or business skills etc.
I really don't see what the issue is. This year it all seems to be, with super rugby, heading in the right direction. With the current board
@Winger said in NZR review:
I really don't see what the issue is. This year it all seems to be, with super rugby, heading in the right direction. With the current board
SR has been farmed off to it's own independent team, so this seems a point in favour of an independent board.
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@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@Winger yep as I said I not arguing one way or other, just it's not clear cut and can see both sides. It's not about accountants etc as such, but the right skills to manage what needs to be managed, I haven't really seen how other sports run their top bodies.
Corruptly?
@Higgins said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@Winger yep as I said I not arguing one way or other, just it's not clear cut and can see both sides. It's not about accountants etc as such, but the right skills to manage what needs to be managed, I haven't really seen how other sports run their top bodies.
Corruptly?
Well if you seen it in other sports, fair enough, but regardless I still don't know how they set up boards etc.
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@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
@booboo said in NZR review:
@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
Well who owns the game anyway? Noy PUs, or NZR etc. I think the review suggested the most quaified should be on board?
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@booboo said in NZR review:
@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
Well who owns the game anyway? Noy PUs, or NZR etc. I think the review suggested the most quaified should be on board?
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@booboo said in NZR review:
@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
Well who owns the game anyway? Noy PUs, or NZR etc. I think the review suggested the most quaified should be on board?
The PU literally own NZ rugby. It's theirs.
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@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@booboo said in NZR review:
@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
Well who owns the game anyway? Noy PUs, or NZR etc. I think the review suggested the most quaified should be on board?
The PU literally own NZ rugby. It's theirs.
@nzzp said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@booboo said in NZR review:
@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
Well who owns the game anyway? Noy PUs, or NZR etc. I think the review suggested the most quaified should be on board?
The PU literally own NZ rugby. It's theirs.
@Dan54 see the above post.
I'll go a little deeper though @nzzp. Who owns the PUs?
Answer: the clubs.
Next question: who owns the clubs?
Answer: the members
I accept the governance structure is wrong and needs to change, but the review recommendations, IIRC, do not allow any place for the owners of the game within the governance. Only for a bunch of "stakeholders" with particular interest.
The PUs, well some of them, have lost focus on what they stand for as winning the NPC, and buying a team to do so, is no longer the prestigious prize it used to be. (The NPC needs to continue as the rep comp it used to be.) But representation direct from the grassroots through the PUs is 100% necessary.
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@Winger said in NZR review:
I really don't see what the issue is. This year it all seems to be, with super rugby, heading in the right direction. With the current board
SR has been farmed off to it's own independent team, so this seems a point in favour of an independent board.
@Machpants said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
I really don't see what the issue is. This year it all seems to be, with super rugby, heading in the right direction. With the current board
SR has been farmed off to it's own independent team, so this seems a point in favour of an independent board.
But this was agreed to by the current Board. And seems to be a big step in the right direction.
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@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
@booboo said in NZR review:
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
Which is a nonsense recommendation. It puts so-called experts on a pedestal. It's a naive recommendation where everything will be fine if we somehow get the right 'experts' in place. And as I've said previously it insulting to all the members who have helped to make NZ rugby what it is
Dame Patsy thinks diversity (discrimination especially against white men) is the answer. Boeing might be one example that suggests otherwise
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@booboo said in NZR review:
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
Which is a nonsense recommendation. It puts so-called experts on a pedestal. It's a naive recommendation where everything will be fine if we somehow get the right 'experts' in place. And as I've said previously it insulting to all the members who have helped to make NZ rugby what it is
Dame Patsy thinks diversity (discrimination especially against white men) is the answer. Boeing might be one example that suggests otherwise
@Winger said in NZR review:
Dame Patsy thinks diversity (discrimination especially against white men) is the answer. Boeing might be one example that suggests otherwise
Do you know she's speaking DEI or diversity of professional experience? I.e. someone with demonstrated success in marketing, in finance etc?
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@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@booboo said in NZR review:
@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
Well who owns the game anyway? Noy PUs, or NZR etc. I think the review suggested the most quaified should be on board?
The PU literally own NZ rugby. It's theirs.
@nzzp said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@booboo said in NZR review:
@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
Well who owns the game anyway? Noy PUs, or NZR etc. I think the review suggested the most quaified should be on board?
The PU literally own NZ rugby. It's theirs.
Mate see booboo's point, no way dp PU's own the game. I not saying which is right way for game to be run, and strongly rubbish comments from some on here about the Blazer brigade that run PU's too. Have never had that impression of any PU board that I have had dealings with , etc. The PU's in general are made up of reps frpm clubs, and the biggest struggle they can have is clubs will get their reps to vote for waht suits their club etc. With too much sway by PU's on NZR the same will apply, and no way do the probelms etc of running rugby in say Auckland the same as running it in Taranaki etc. That rightly or wrongly is why I suggest they are trying to take PUs out of picture? I am guessing there, but would assume that is one of reasons. Anyone even talking about Super boards etc are well off track, they don't have reps on NZR and never have.
@Winger 'asking what if baord is incompetent or corrupt is just trying to muddy water, that is trouble whatever way you form board!!
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@nzzp said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
@booboo said in NZR review:
@nzzp said in NZR review:
Made me think about who owns NZR
I think this is important. From my understanding of the review there was no place for anyone representing the owners of the game.
Well who owns the game anyway? Noy PUs, or NZR etc. I think the review suggested the most quaified should be on board?
The PU literally own NZ rugby. It's theirs.
Mate see booboo's point, no way dp PU's own the game. I not saying which is right way for game to be run, and strongly rubbish comments from some on here about the Blazer brigade that run PU's too. Have never had that impression of any PU board that I have had dealings with , etc. The PU's in general are made up of reps frpm clubs, and the biggest struggle they can have is clubs will get their reps to vote for waht suits their club etc. With too much sway by PU's on NZR the same will apply, and no way do the probelms etc of running rugby in say Auckland the same as running it in Taranaki etc. That rightly or wrongly is why I suggest they are trying to take PUs out of picture? I am guessing there, but would assume that is one of reasons. Anyone even talking about Super boards etc are well off track, they don't have reps on NZR and never have.
@Winger 'asking what if baord is incompetent or corrupt is just trying to muddy water, that is trouble whatever way you form board!!
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@Winger said in NZR review:
Dame Patsy thinks diversity (discrimination especially against white men) is the answer. Boeing might be one example that suggests otherwise
Do you know she's speaking DEI or diversity of professional experience? I.e. someone with demonstrated success in marketing, in finance etc?
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
Dame Patsy thinks diversity (discrimination especially against white men) is the answer. Boeing might be one example that suggests otherwise
Do you know she's speaking DEI or diversity of professional experience? I.e. someone with demonstrated success in marketing, in finance etc?
“But there are different ways of doing this, and having a bar, or having a requirement that at least three members of the board must have that [provincial union] governance experience is unnecessarily restrictive.
“It sets in place a criterion that will cut out or could cut out people that have equally as strong understanding of the game.”
The NZ Rugby proposal would also pave the way for a ‘stakeholder council’ that Reddy saw as crucial to give more of a voice to diverse communities, Pasifika, women and younger participants.
“Over the last 10 or 12 years, there've been five separate governance reviews into our structure, our governance, our leadership structure, and each time there's been some incremental change, but it has not delivered the reform that everybody's seeking,” Dame Patsy said.
Should Reddy resign, it would mean a short tenure for the first woman to chair NZ Rugby since it was founded in 1892.
Asked what message that would send about NZ Rugby as an organisation, she said: “I think that's for you to consider.
“For me it's being honest, it's being upfront with the provincial unions in the first instance, but also the wider rugby stakeholders - and indeed the public - to say that one of the principles that I firmly believe in is the time is right to have not only a diverse board, not only a board that has the opportunity for constructive feedback from a wider range of stakeholders, but a board that has that an independent position, all appointed through the same appointments process.
"And for me, that's a fundamental requirement.“
The NZ Rugby proposal is now being weighed up by the provincial unions.
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@booboo said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
no way dp PU's own the game.
But they do represent the owners.
Spot on.
As @booboo said, it's the members who own the clubs who own the PU. They have to have a major say in how the game is run.
Professional rugby needs different skills. PU don't always have that. But ultimately having the PU cut out of the board seems weird to me.
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On the diversity thing, everyone does remember we lost Gov't grants because of not enough women on board? So diversity is a requirement.
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
On the diversity thing, everyone does remember we lost Gov't grants because of not enough women on board? So diversity is a requirement.
The thing with this requirement is that all women on the NZR Board will be considered a diversity as opposed to a merit appointment. And it won't stop with the Board if it's not stopped. Men (esp white) need to find their backbone again and fight this sort of stuff.
Having said that I support more PI, Maori and women involved but always based on merit. Nothing else
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@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
Dame Patsy thinks diversity (discrimination especially against white men) is the answer. Boeing might be one example that suggests otherwise
Do you know she's speaking DEI or diversity of professional experience? I.e. someone with demonstrated success in marketing, in finance etc?
“But there are different ways of doing this, and having a bar, or having a requirement that at least three members of the board must have that [provincial union] governance experience is unnecessarily restrictive.
“It sets in place a criterion that will cut out or could cut out people that have equally as strong understanding of the game.”
The NZ Rugby proposal would also pave the way for a ‘stakeholder council’ that Reddy saw as crucial to give more of a voice to diverse communities, Pasifika, women and younger participants.
“Over the last 10 or 12 years, there've been five separate governance reviews into our structure, our governance, our leadership structure, and each time there's been some incremental change, but it has not delivered the reform that everybody's seeking,” Dame Patsy said.
Should Reddy resign, it would mean a short tenure for the first woman to chair NZ Rugby since it was founded in 1892.
Asked what message that would send about NZ Rugby as an organisation, she said: “I think that's for you to consider.
“For me it's being honest, it's being upfront with the provincial unions in the first instance, but also the wider rugby stakeholders - and indeed the public - to say that one of the principles that I firmly believe in is the time is right to have not only a diverse board, not only a board that has the opportunity for constructive feedback from a wider range of stakeholders, but a board that has that an independent position, all appointed through the same appointments process.
"And for me, that's a fundamental requirement.“
The NZ Rugby proposal is now being weighed up by the provincial unions.
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@Winger a stakeholder council isn't a board. I don't see a problem with asking women as an example what they see as lacking from their game. Doesn't mean NZR are bound to provide it, just consider it.
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Winger a stakeholder council isn't a board. I don't see a problem with asking women as an example what they see as lacking from their game. Doesn't mean NZR are bound to provide it, just consider it.
My view is the NZR proposal is much worse (its f++king awful) than the review panel recommendations
The review panel seemed ok
NZR proposal (who came up with this?)
Same - all Board members are independent.
Existing Board members will continue in office until they
are due for retirement by rotation.
The Constitution will entrench the following in the Skills &
Competencies Framework:
• The Board must have diversity across gender,
background, and ethnicity,
• Have expertise in tikanga and Te Ao Māori and strong
relationships across Māori and Pasifika
• Collectively have sufficient rugby knowledge at all levels
of the game in New Zealand -
@antipodean said in NZR review:
@Winger a stakeholder council isn't a board. I don't see a problem with asking women as an example what they see as lacking from their game. Doesn't mean NZR are bound to provide it, just consider it.
My view is the NZR proposal is much worse (its f++king awful) than the review panel recommendations
The review panel seemed ok
NZR proposal (who came up with this?)
Same - all Board members are independent.
Existing Board members will continue in office until they
are due for retirement by rotation.
The Constitution will entrench the following in the Skills &
Competencies Framework:
• The Board must have diversity across gender,
background, and ethnicity,
• Have expertise in tikanga and Te Ao Māori and strong
relationships across Māori and Pasifika
• Collectively have sufficient rugby knowledge at all levels
of the game in New Zealand@Winger said in NZR review:
The Constitution will entrench the following in the Skills &
Competencies Framework:
• The Board must have diversity across gender, background, and ethnicity,
• Have expertise in tikanga and Te Ao MāoriThat I certainly don't agree with.
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@Dan54 said in NZR review:
On the diversity thing, everyone does remember we lost Gov't grants because of not enough women on board? So diversity is a requirement.
The thing with this requirement is that all women on the NZR Board will be considered a diversity as opposed to a merit appointment. And it won't stop with the Board if it's not stopped. Men (esp white) need to find their backbone again and fight this sort of stuff.
Having said that I support more PI, Maori and women involved but always based on merit. Nothing else
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Dan54 said in NZR review:
On the diversity thing, everyone does remember we lost Gov't grants because of not enough women on board? So diversity is a requirement.
The thing with this requirement is that all women on the NZR Board will be considered a diversity as opposed to a merit appointment. And it won't stop with the Board if it's not stopped. Men (esp white) need to find their backbone again and fight this sort of stuff.
Having said that I support more PI, Maori and women involved but always based on merit. Nothing else
Well that's for politics thread probably. I was just replying to the comments on Reddy talking about diversity etc, it is needed end of. Doesn't worry me, and I don't think I have lost backbone as a white male because I comfortable with it. Noone is suggesting that you have to have board members without merit, and if you think only white males are always or the only ones who can do job, I would maybe relievesd you only give opinions on a forum and not running game.
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Doesn't matter what we think anyway, if we want the game to flourish, and I mean apart from us old white males, you have to (I think) show you are there for game for all. I think saying the board has to have expertise in Tikanga and Te Ao Maori is a problem, you can have advisors etc for that. I would also think the board would have to have expertise in english and NZ culture etc, but we take that for granted anyway.
