Super Rugby - The Future

[mariner4life]

Though, as a counter point, the Tahs have won precisely one comp in their existence

Where was their best forward from?

[MajorPom]

@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2024:

Weird isn't it?

NRL crowds couldn't give a fuck where their star player comes from, as long as they win
Big Bash teams are made up of people from everywhere
AFL don't give even a tiny shit where their players come from
Basketball? I would cheer a guy from and country on the planet if he brought the Taipans a championship

So why do rugby fans care so much?

To be honest, I could be wrong.

I'm basing these thoughts on personal experiences in that I've spent the lions share of my career working with people from the elite schools in Sydney and they are pretty much so all like Kearns. My two visits to SFS to watch teams play the Tahs fully back up and reinforce this point of view.

Part of the reason I really like the Force is they seem to be the polar opposite of this.

[mariner4life]

You're not wrong

It's because, here in Australasia, rugby is a national game
It's kiwis v Aussies
We hate them, they hate us.
That's how it's marketed, that's how it's presented

But, I reckon if DMac led.the Reds to championship they would love him.

[Tim]

@mariner4life Braid at the Reds was another example of acceptance.

[MajorPom]

@Tim said in Super Rugby 2024:

@mariner4life Braid at the Reds was another example of acceptance.

Different point though. The odd player here/there vs a team chock full.

Tipping point would probably be 3-4 players I reckon. That number is based on absolutely nothing other than a guess.

[Mr Fish]

The Force fans seem to support their team even though it's largely made up of players from outside the region and outside the country.

I think fans would get on board, provided the players are actually good. It's tough having a bad local player in your team but it's much tougher having a bad non-local player.

I think the bigger difference between Super and the NHL is the existence of the international scene. NZR are (somewhat understandably) worried that having players based all over APAC will harm the All Blacks, which is not a moot point.

[Kiwiwomble]

@MajorRage said in Super Rugby 2024:

@Tim said in Super Rugby 2024:

@mariner4life Braid at the Reds was another example of acceptance.

Different point though. The odd player here/there vs a team chock full.

Tipping point would probably be 3-4 players I reckon. That number is based on absolutely nothing other than a guess.

i dont think you're wrong...i do wonder if it would change if a brumbies/tahs/reds team half full of kiwis...actually won...a lot...i think we'd start seeing what we see with any successful person from this side of the world...terms like "austrilasian" or "ANZAC" would start getting thrown around....i think success trumps all...and if they at least gave a nod to that success helping to develop the next generation of local school boys...the fans would get on board

[Crazy Horse]

If more Kiwis played for Aussie teams I' d be worried about the Wallabies poaching a player or two.

[antipodean]

@Crazy-Horse said in Super Rugby 2024:

If more Kiwis played for Aussie teams I' d be worried about the Wallabies poaching a player or two.

That would have to be a long term strategy and I don't think they've the nous to do that.

8.1 Subject to Regulation 8.2, a Player may only play for the senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team, the next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team and the senior National Representative Sevens Team of the Union of the country with which the Player has a genuine, close, credible and established national link in which:

(a) the Player was born; or

(b) one parent or grandparent was born; or

(c) the Player has completed sixty [1] consecutive months of Residence immediately preceding the time of playing; or

(d) the Player has completed ten years of cumulative Residence preceding the time of playing.

[Kiwiwomble]

@Crazy-Horse quite possibly, my feeling is a player or two shouldnt be a reason not to do something if it might save franchise/club rugby in the pacific

two things i am more and more feeling...all blacks rugby is at its strongest when the wallabies a strong...competition breeds excellence

if we can make a more competitive and attractive competition then we'll bring through more and more talent to replace people that go overseas, holding on to players because we're afraid of loosing them, and possibly giving AB contracts to people that are getting on...just in case...is possibly also hindering the development of young people coming through so they dont see a future

[Machpants]

ABs strongest period leading upto 2011 and 2015 RWC, Oz were there or there about, 2,3,4th averaging this. But towards the end, they were 6th until RWC and reaching the final double boosted them up

[Kiwiwomble]

@Machpants i would say you could go further, the AB's didnt just get good in 2011, it was built on the success of the previous years

2009 - Bulls, 2010 - Bulls, 2011 - Reds, our guys came out of those seasons battle hardened

hell...look at the table from 2010

but the AB's went 13-1 that year

[mariner4life]

but, but, but, i have been reliably informed by people on this very forum that the South African sides added nothing to the comp and are not missed at all...

[Machpants]

@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby - The Future:

@Machpants i would say you could go further, the AB's didnt just get good in 2011, it was built on the success of the previous years

2009 - Bulls, 2010 - Bulls, 2011 - Reds, our guys came out of those seasons battle hardened

hell...look at the table from 2010

but the AB's went 13-1 that year

That's why I said leading up to

And yeah SA added heaps, they weren't great in the comp that often, but different styles of players, tactics and even ground made a big difference to our players IMO

[Kiwiwomble]

@mariner4life said in Super Rugby - The Future:

but, but, but, i have been reliably informed by people on this very forum that the South African sides added nothing to the comp and are not missed at all...

i was probably guilty of some of that although i think my main probably was game times and scheduling etc

@Machpants said in Super Rugby - The Future:

That's why I said leading up to

fair

[antipodean]

@mariner4life said in Super Rugby - The Future:

You're not wrong

It's because, here in Australasia, rugby is a national game
It's kiwis v Aussies
We hate them, they hate us.
That's how it's marketed, that's how it's presented

That's only true for the Bledisloe IMO

But, I reckon if DMac led.the Reds to championship they would love him.

Australians love winners. The disparity in crowds when the Reds sucked and when they won tells us everything - it's the clear direction to broadcasters that their spastic commentary teams needs to stop referring to SR sides as NPC hangovers.

[Duluth]

@mariner4life said in Super Rugby - The Future:

but, but, but, i have been reliably informed by people on this very forum that the South African sides added nothing to the comp and are not missed at all...

Two different parts to the conversation. The rugby and the competition

The variety of rugby styles is missed

Towards the end the viewing figures for games in SA were abysmal in Aus/NZ because of the time zones. Supporters of teams weren't bothering to watch their own team on tour. All the competition games being in a similar timezone is an improvement (Perth afternoon games work as an late evening game)

[Duluth]

@gt12 said in Super Rugby - The Future:

Without really thinking, I wonder whether we should (1) add some Japanese teams to a cross-over super competition that acts as a club Championship / Plate (maybe we might need a bowl) with teams seeded based on their J-League and home competition results. That would be 'Super' rugby in my model and teams would play with their 'home' teams with quite big squads.

In place of NPC, I would (2) add two-three super teams (which would be the shit fight) and play a local competition with our 'super' sides , under which I'd run 'reserve' super sides, and players could go up and down as needed. Australia could do the same thing and I would suggest they take on Moana Pasifika to add teams. This competition would be the qualification for which division you play in for Super rugby club championship.

I think we are drifting towards something a bit like that.

With possible Japanese involvement I wonder if a fix for Moana Pasifika is to resurrect the old Pacific Barbarians concept? It was based in Singapore and coached by Umaga. No one watches them in NZ it's a complete failure. Give them a home, a good stadium and better access to sponsorship money.

The Baabaas didn't do great either but they had no meaningful rugby

[gt12]

@Duluth said in Super Rugby - The Future:

@gt12 said in Super Rugby - The Future:

Without really thinking, I wonder whether we should (1) add some Japanese teams to a cross-over super competition that acts as a club Championship / Plate (maybe we might need a bowl) with teams seeded based on their J-League and home competition results. That would be 'Super' rugby in my model and teams would play with their 'home' teams with quite big squads.

In place of NPC, I would (2) add two-three super teams (which would be the shit fight) and play a local competition with our 'super' sides , under which I'd run 'reserve' super sides, and players could go up and down as needed. Australia could do the same thing and I would suggest they take on Moana Pasifika to add teams. This competition would be the qualification for which division you play in for Super rugby club championship.

I think we are drifting towards something a bit like that.

With possible Japanese involvement I wonder if a fix for Moana Pasifika is to resurrect the old Pacific Barbarians concept? It was based in Singapore and coached by Umaga. No one watches them in NZ it's a complete failure. Give them a home, a good stadium and better access to sponsorship money.

The Baabaas didn't do great either but they had no meaningful rugby

I agree that they need a real home. Personally I'd like to see them based out of Apia / Nukuʻalofa.

I can see why in reality that is pretty hard to get done, so Singapore could be a good place, especially if they are tied to an Australian local competition.

One of the reasons why I like this two-competition idea is that the Aussies sides could also have a domestic competition. If the Rebels were wrapped up, then with MP they'd have 6 teams for a local competition and could then divide them in two for the club championship.

I hope that the NZRU is trying to make something like this happen.

I think we could then easily move to a loosening of the AB requirements, probably so that once you are capped (perhaps with some sort of Giteau rule), you can be recruited to a team within the competition and maintain eligibility.

Personally, I'd be looking at it as one way to get really expensive players paid without us needing to stump up all of the cash, however to do that we'd need a much clearer distinction between National / Super contracts and an enforced salary cap.

[Duluth]

@gt12 said in Super Rugby - The Future:

I can see why in reality that is pretty hard to get done, so Singapore could be a good place, especially if they are tied to an Australian local competition.

Hawaii is another possibility that gets mentioned